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Old 12-16-2012, 10:35 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is online now
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Let's research gun violence.

I've said this in a couple other threads, but I don't believe that gun control is going to get any traction in Congress. Some Democrats will push for it, some other Republicans will table it, some pro-gun control folks like myself will cry foul, and yet another Congress will pass without any gun control measures seeing the light of day.

But here's one thing that maybe we can start doing: better educate ourselves on gun violence, so we can stop stabbing in the dark as to what we can better do to mitigate it.

The problem is that for a couple decades now, the government has not been able to produce any information on gun violence because the NRA has been threatening war if Congress failed to choke off all funding for gun-related research.

The CDC and NIH used to conduct research for decades, but around the time of the late 90s, the NRA became so powerful it was able to prevent these agencies from granting funds to researchers on those topics. McClatchy DC:

Quote:
The CDC and NIH award billions in grants. They fund research into cancer, brain injury, tobacco use, obesity, AIDS, abortion, hearing loss, allergies, infectious diseases, back pain and virtually everything else related to human health. But gun violence is the one area that carries that specific language. The effect has been to limit federal funding into research that could be used to shape policy.
This is irresponsible. We pass hundreds of gun-related laws across the country every few years. Like all laws, we should be able to research the impact of the laws we pass, so we can make decisions based on more than pure ideology.

Anyway, there's a ton of stories on this, but here's a really good one from last year in the Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/us...anted=all&_r=0

N.R.A. Stymies Firearms Research, Scientists Say
By MICHAEL LUO
Published: January 25, 2011

In the wake of the shootings in Tucson, the familiar questions inevitably resurfaced: Are communities where more people carry guns safer or less safe? Does the availability of high-capacity magazines increase deaths? Do more rigorous background checks make a difference?

The reality is that even these and other basic questions cannot be fully answered, because not enough research has been done. And there is a reason for that. Scientists in the field and former officials with the government agency that used to finance the great bulk of this research say the influence of the National Rife Association has all but choked off money for such work.

“We’ve been stopped from answering the basic questions,” said Mark Rosenberg, former director of the National Center for Injury Control and Prevention, part of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which was for about a decade the leading source of financing for firearms research.

Chris Cox, the N.R.A.’s chief lobbyist, said his group had not tried to squelch genuine scientific inquiries, just politically slanted ones.

“Our concern is not with legitimate medical science,” Mr. Cox said. “Our concern is they were promoting the idea that gun ownership was a disease that needed to be eradicated.”

The amount of money available today for studying the impact of firearms is a fraction of what it was in the mid-1990s, and the number of scientists toiling in the field has dwindled to just a handful as a result, researchers say.

The dearth of money can be traced in large measure to a clash between public health scientists and the N.R.A. in the mid-1990s. At the time, Dr. Rosenberg and others at the C.D.C. were becoming increasingly assertive about the importance of studying gun-related injuries and deaths as a public health phenomenon, financing studies that found, for example, having a gun in the house, rather than conferring protection, significantly increased the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.

Alarmed, the N.R.A. and its allies on Capitol Hill fought back. The injury center was guilty of “putting out papers that were really political opinion masquerading as medical science,” said Mr. Cox, who also worked on this issue for the N.R.A. more than a decade ago.

Initially, pro-gun lawmakers sought to eliminate the injury center completely, arguing that its work was “redundant” and reflected a political agenda. When that failed, they turned to the appropriations process. In 1996, Representative Jay Dickey, Republican of Arkansas, succeeded in pushing through an amendment that stripped $2.6 million from the disease control centers’ budget, the very amount it had spent on firearms-related research the year before.

“It’s really simple with me,” Mr. Dickey, 71 and now retired, said in a telephone interview. “We have the right to bear arms because of the threat of government taking over the freedoms that we have.”

The Senate later restored the money but designated it for research on traumatic brain injury. Language was also inserted into the centers’ appropriations bill that remains in place today: “None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”

The prohibition is striking, firearms researchers say, because there are already regulations that bar the use of C.D.C. money for lobbying for or against legislation. No other field of inquiry is singled out in this way.

In the end, researchers said, even though it is murky what exactly is allowed under this provision and what is not, the upshot is clear inside the centers: the agency should tread in this area only at its own peril.

“They had a near-death experience,” said Dr. Arthur Kellermann, whose study on the risks versus the benefits of having guns in the home became a focal point of attack by the N.R.A.

In the years since, the C.D.C. has been exceedingly wary of financing research focused on firearms. In its annual requests for proposals, for example, firearms research has been notably absent. Gail Hayes, spokeswoman for the centers, confirmed that since 1996, while the agency has issued requests for proposals that include the study of violence, which may include gun violence, it had not sent out any specifically on firearms.

“For policy to be effective, it needs to be based on evidence,” said Dr. Garen Wintemute, director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at the University of California, Davis, who had his C.D.C. financing cut in 1996. “The National Rifle Association and its allies in Congress have largely succeeded in choking off the development of evidence upon which that policy could be based.”

Private foundations initially stepped into the breach, but their attention tends to wax and wane, researchers said. They are also much more interested in work that leads to immediate results and less willing to finance basic epidemiological research that scientists say is necessary to establishing a foundation of knowledge about the connection between guns and violence, or the lack thereof.

The National Institute of Justice, part of the Justice Department, also used to finance firearms research, researchers said, but that money has also petered out in recent years. (Institute officials said they hoped to reinvigorate financing in this area.)

Stephen Teret, founding director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, estimated that the amount of money available for firearms research was a quarter of what it used to be. With so much uncertainty about financing, Mr. Teret said, the circle of academics who study the phenomenon has fallen off significantly.

After the centers’ clash with the N.R.A., Mr. Teret said he was asked by C.D.C. officials to “curtail some things I was saying about guns and gun policy.”

Mr. Teret objected, saying his public comments about gun policy did not come while he was on the “C.D.C. meter.” After he threatened to file a lawsuit against the agency, Mr. Teret said, the officials backed down and gave him “a little bit more leeway.”

C.D.C. financing for research on gun violence has not stopped completely, but it is now mostly limited to work in which firearms are only a component.

The centers also ask researchers it finances to give it a heads-up anytime they are publishing studies that have anything to do with firearms. The agency, in turn, relays this information to the N.R.A. as a courtesy, said Thomas Skinner, a spokesman for the centers.

Invariably, researchers said, whenever their work touches upon firearms, the C.D.C. becomes squeamish. In the end, they said, it is often simply easier to avoid the topic if they want to continue to be in the agency’s good graces.

Dr. Stephen Hargarten, professor and chairman of emergency medicine at the Medical College of Wisconsin, used to direct a research center, financed by the C.D.C., that focused on gun violence, but he said he had now shifted his attention to other issues.
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:06 AM   #796
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Originally Posted by frazod View Post
10 round clip versus 20 round magazine. Certainly a clip is inferior to a magazine, but an experienced shooter can load a stripper clip quickly.

A scope can easily be mounted on the unmodified rifle.
Exactly.

I didn't even think about the scope being why he would think it is more accurate... while true when aiming for a distant target, in the case of most recent mass shootings, a scope would be a detriment. I know I can aim a crap load faster using iron sights as opposed to a scope. Either way, you are correct to point out that a scope can be mounted on damn near any gun.

LOOKOUT! It's an assault revolver!!!



EDIT: btw, I know YOU know everything I am saying in this post, I am just adding commentary to hopefully educate our liberal friends... assuming they are brave enough to come out from under the bed long enough to read the post

Last edited by AustinChief; 12-23-2012 at 02:29 AM..
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:08 AM   #797
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Originally Posted by frazod View Post
I feel like the little smart ass kid in class who blurts out the answer because he knows the dummy who was actually asked won't know.
Speaking of dummies... I notice Direkshun and his bitch haven't weighed in lately...
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:30 AM   #798
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Originally Posted by frazod View Post
I wonder how of these liberal idiots (including some who post on this board) truly believe that our rifles are fully-automatic just because they look like the weapons in their ****ing Xbox games.
That's exactly what they think....most of these idiots have probably never shot a real semi auto in their lives.
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:08 AM   #799
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Originally Posted by Radar Chief View Post
No funny found.
Too much truth hit home? Jesus.

I don't understand how you don't find some humor in there, unless you're paranoid that it applies to your life. I'm not even trying to be passive aggressive. I'll chalk it up to different strokes, for different folks. Or in this case, different bullets, for different mullets.
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:16 AM   #800
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Speaking of dummies... I notice Direkshun and his bitch haven't weighed in lately...
I'm sorry, I don't understand. Can you rephrase the question?


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Old 12-23-2012, 08:18 AM   #801
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Originally Posted by Mr. Flopnuts View Post
Too much truth hit home? Jesus.

I don't understand how you don't find some humor in there, unless you're paranoid that it applies to your life. I'm not even trying to be passive aggressive. I'll chalk it up to different strokes, for different folks. Or in this case, different bullets, for different mullets.
The last line is good material
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:41 AM
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:43 AM   #802
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Originally Posted by Mr. Flopnuts View Post
Too much truth hit home? Jesus.

I don't understand how you don't find some humor in there, unless you're paranoid that it applies to your life. I'm not even trying to be passive aggressive. I'll chalk it up to different strokes, for different folks. Or in this case, different bullets, for different mullets.
No truth found either, which was pointed out in my first response.
Seriously, how do you find that ridiculously inaccurate cartoon even slightly "funny"?
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Old 12-23-2012, 06:21 PM   #803
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Exactly.

I didn't even think about the scope being why he would think it is more accurate... while true when aiming for a distant target, in the case of most recent mass shootings, a scope would be a detriment. I know I can aim a crap load faster using iron sights as opposed to a scope. Either way, you are correct to point out that a scope can be mounted on damn near any gun.

LOOKOUT! It's an assault revolver!!!



EDIT: btw, I know YOU know everything I am saying in this post, I am just adding commentary to hopefully educate our liberal friends... assuming they are brave enough to come out from under the bed long enough to read the post

Just because it has a scope doesn't mean you have to use it. Just the way the two guns are held would increase accuracy at closer ranges.

I'll admit to not knowing a lot about guns, but I know a little, I have common snese, and I'll call BS when I see it. For you to say those guns are the same is BS, and you have admitted it--you've agreed on every point I made. One has more bullets, can be shot more quickly, and can be shot more accurately. So at least keep your ****ing attitude in check. You'll be right about something eventually and you can act like an asshole then.
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Old 12-23-2012, 07:33 PM   #804
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Old 12-23-2012, 07:50 PM   #805
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Old 12-23-2012, 07:56 PM   #806
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Old 12-23-2012, 07:59 PM   #807
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:42 PM   #808
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Just because it has a scope doesn't mean you have to use it. Just the way the two guns are held would increase accuracy at closer ranges.

I'll admit to not knowing a lot about guns, but I know a little, I have common snese, and I'll call BS when I see it. For you to say those guns are the same is BS, and you have admitted it--you've agreed on every point I made. One has more bullets, can be shot more quickly, and can be shot more accurately. So at least keep your ****ing attitude in check. You'll be right about something eventually and you can act like an asshole then.
Your ignorance is shining through like a beacon on this post! They are the same gun. Period. Yes, one has a detachable magazine that holds more rounds, that does not change the rate of fire, or the accuracy. How ****ing stupid do you have to be to not see that? If you honestly believe that the pistol grip (way it is held) is going to effect accuracy than you are a lost cause. And where the **** do you get the idea that one can be fired more quickly??? Does your finger somehow magically get faster because it is a scary looking gun?
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:01 PM   #809
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Your ignorance is shining through like a beacon on this post! They are the same gun. Period. Yes, one has a detachable magazine that holds more rounds, that does not change the rate of fire, or the accuracy. How ****ing stupid do you have to be to not see that? If you honestly believe that the pistol grip (way it is held) is going to effect accuracy than you are a lost cause. And where the **** do you get the idea that one can be fired more quickly??? Does your finger somehow magically get faster because it is a scary looking gun?
Yes, they are the "same" gun...except for all of the differences, most of which you have ignored.

Clavin,
If one gun holds 10 rounds and one holds 20--which would be faster to shoot 20 rounds?

I've shot both types and the pistol grip definetely makes the gun easier and faster to operate, as well as to control. The forward grip also increases control. Is this really even a point to argue? JFC
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:15 PM   #810
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
If one gun holds 10 rounds and one holds 20--which would be faster to shoot 20 rounds?

I've shot both types and the pistol grip definetely makes the gun easier and faster to operate, as well as to control. The forward grip also increases control. Is this really even a point to argue? JFC
Yes, it will be able to fire 20 rounds faster, you might want to specify what you mean next time instead of an ignorant statement like "it fires faster!!!!"

And no, the pistol grip does not make the gun faster to operate. What the **** is wrong with you?

Nor does it make it more accurate, but for sake of argument let's pretend your insane rambling is somehow magically correct... that means you object to anything that makes a gun more accurate. That's brilliant!

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