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Old 12-16-2012, 10:35 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Let's research gun violence.

I've said this in a couple other threads, but I don't believe that gun control is going to get any traction in Congress. Some Democrats will push for it, some other Republicans will table it, some pro-gun control folks like myself will cry foul, and yet another Congress will pass without any gun control measures seeing the light of day.

But here's one thing that maybe we can start doing: better educate ourselves on gun violence, so we can stop stabbing in the dark as to what we can better do to mitigate it.

The problem is that for a couple decades now, the government has not been able to produce any information on gun violence because the NRA has been threatening war if Congress failed to choke off all funding for gun-related research.

The CDC and NIH used to conduct research for decades, but around the time of the late 90s, the NRA became so powerful it was able to prevent these agencies from granting funds to researchers on those topics. McClatchy DC:

Quote:
The CDC and NIH award billions in grants. They fund research into cancer, brain injury, tobacco use, obesity, AIDS, abortion, hearing loss, allergies, infectious diseases, back pain and virtually everything else related to human health. But gun violence is the one area that carries that specific language. The effect has been to limit federal funding into research that could be used to shape policy.
This is irresponsible. We pass hundreds of gun-related laws across the country every few years. Like all laws, we should be able to research the impact of the laws we pass, so we can make decisions based on more than pure ideology.

Anyway, there's a ton of stories on this, but here's a really good one from last year in the Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/us...anted=all&_r=0

N.R.A. Stymies Firearms Research, Scientists Say
By MICHAEL LUO
Published: January 25, 2011

In the wake of the shootings in Tucson, the familiar questions inevitably resurfaced: Are communities where more people carry guns safer or less safe? Does the availability of high-capacity magazines increase deaths? Do more rigorous background checks make a difference?

The reality is that even these and other basic questions cannot be fully answered, because not enough research has been done. And there is a reason for that. Scientists in the field and former officials with the government agency that used to finance the great bulk of this research say the influence of the National Rife Association has all but choked off money for such work.

“We’ve been stopped from answering the basic questions,” said Mark Rosenberg, former director of the National Center for Injury Control and Prevention, part of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which was for about a decade the leading source of financing for firearms research.

Chris Cox, the N.R.A.’s chief lobbyist, said his group had not tried to squelch genuine scientific inquiries, just politically slanted ones.

“Our concern is not with legitimate medical science,” Mr. Cox said. “Our concern is they were promoting the idea that gun ownership was a disease that needed to be eradicated.”

The amount of money available today for studying the impact of firearms is a fraction of what it was in the mid-1990s, and the number of scientists toiling in the field has dwindled to just a handful as a result, researchers say.

The dearth of money can be traced in large measure to a clash between public health scientists and the N.R.A. in the mid-1990s. At the time, Dr. Rosenberg and others at the C.D.C. were becoming increasingly assertive about the importance of studying gun-related injuries and deaths as a public health phenomenon, financing studies that found, for example, having a gun in the house, rather than conferring protection, significantly increased the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.

Alarmed, the N.R.A. and its allies on Capitol Hill fought back. The injury center was guilty of “putting out papers that were really political opinion masquerading as medical science,” said Mr. Cox, who also worked on this issue for the N.R.A. more than a decade ago.

Initially, pro-gun lawmakers sought to eliminate the injury center completely, arguing that its work was “redundant” and reflected a political agenda. When that failed, they turned to the appropriations process. In 1996, Representative Jay Dickey, Republican of Arkansas, succeeded in pushing through an amendment that stripped $2.6 million from the disease control centers’ budget, the very amount it had spent on firearms-related research the year before.

“It’s really simple with me,” Mr. Dickey, 71 and now retired, said in a telephone interview. “We have the right to bear arms because of the threat of government taking over the freedoms that we have.”

The Senate later restored the money but designated it for research on traumatic brain injury. Language was also inserted into the centers’ appropriations bill that remains in place today: “None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”

The prohibition is striking, firearms researchers say, because there are already regulations that bar the use of C.D.C. money for lobbying for or against legislation. No other field of inquiry is singled out in this way.

In the end, researchers said, even though it is murky what exactly is allowed under this provision and what is not, the upshot is clear inside the centers: the agency should tread in this area only at its own peril.

“They had a near-death experience,” said Dr. Arthur Kellermann, whose study on the risks versus the benefits of having guns in the home became a focal point of attack by the N.R.A.

In the years since, the C.D.C. has been exceedingly wary of financing research focused on firearms. In its annual requests for proposals, for example, firearms research has been notably absent. Gail Hayes, spokeswoman for the centers, confirmed that since 1996, while the agency has issued requests for proposals that include the study of violence, which may include gun violence, it had not sent out any specifically on firearms.

“For policy to be effective, it needs to be based on evidence,” said Dr. Garen Wintemute, director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at the University of California, Davis, who had his C.D.C. financing cut in 1996. “The National Rifle Association and its allies in Congress have largely succeeded in choking off the development of evidence upon which that policy could be based.”

Private foundations initially stepped into the breach, but their attention tends to wax and wane, researchers said. They are also much more interested in work that leads to immediate results and less willing to finance basic epidemiological research that scientists say is necessary to establishing a foundation of knowledge about the connection between guns and violence, or the lack thereof.

The National Institute of Justice, part of the Justice Department, also used to finance firearms research, researchers said, but that money has also petered out in recent years. (Institute officials said they hoped to reinvigorate financing in this area.)

Stephen Teret, founding director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, estimated that the amount of money available for firearms research was a quarter of what it used to be. With so much uncertainty about financing, Mr. Teret said, the circle of academics who study the phenomenon has fallen off significantly.

After the centers’ clash with the N.R.A., Mr. Teret said he was asked by C.D.C. officials to “curtail some things I was saying about guns and gun policy.”

Mr. Teret objected, saying his public comments about gun policy did not come while he was on the “C.D.C. meter.” After he threatened to file a lawsuit against the agency, Mr. Teret said, the officials backed down and gave him “a little bit more leeway.”

C.D.C. financing for research on gun violence has not stopped completely, but it is now mostly limited to work in which firearms are only a component.

The centers also ask researchers it finances to give it a heads-up anytime they are publishing studies that have anything to do with firearms. The agency, in turn, relays this information to the N.R.A. as a courtesy, said Thomas Skinner, a spokesman for the centers.

Invariably, researchers said, whenever their work touches upon firearms, the C.D.C. becomes squeamish. In the end, they said, it is often simply easier to avoid the topic if they want to continue to be in the agency’s good graces.

Dr. Stephen Hargarten, professor and chairman of emergency medicine at the Medical College of Wisconsin, used to direct a research center, financed by the C.D.C., that focused on gun violence, but he said he had now shifted his attention to other issues.
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:26 PM   #841
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Would it be called gun Violence if I filled a Super Soaker with my piss & then went & hosed down a bunch of Westboro Baptist **** tards protesting a military funeral? I wounder how many days in jail it would fetch me?
It would fetch you...

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Old 12-24-2012, 10:37 PM   #842
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
No, that's just the most obvious one. You won't even acknowlege that, so there's no point in going further. Enjoy your circle jerk--
So please explain your point again then... so far all I have heard is...

It has a scope! - yes, and so can any gun.. that doesn't mean it is a different gun. This was possibly the most ridiculous assertion you have made.

It can be held differently! (different grips) - almost as ridiculous, bringing back the car analogy, if you change out your Beetle's steering wheel it doesn't make it a different car nor will it make it handle better. It's simply a preference.

And finally, it has a detachable magazine with more rounds! - Here you have the only difference that matters even slightly. So again, your argument is that an SKS with a detachable magazine is not the same gun as one with an attached magazine.

Please tell me where I am wrong on my recap of your argument so far.

You also have yet to address the third pic... I'll attach it again so you can...
Is this a "different gun" as well?

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Old 12-24-2012, 10:39 PM   #843
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Originally Posted by frazod View Post
I like this logic. So if I put a bigger fuel tank in my Chevy and add some chrome wheels, it turns into a Cadillac.
Don't forget a backup camera... you'll need one of those to make it a different car entirely!

I actually like your analogy better than mine...

Here let me adjust mine... if his boyfriend's Beetle is pink(color), has a different steering wheel(grips), a larger fuel tank(magazine) and a backup camera(scope)... it's a different car entirely!
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:43 PM   #844
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Originally Posted by frazod View Post
I like this logic. So if I put a bigger fuel tank in my Chevy and add some chrome wheels, it turns into a Cadillac.
That's about it, comic relief though.
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:48 PM   #845
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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HAHA, no real accusation here. I actually figured you were busy making last minute toys for Santa.

Merry Christmas btw.
Riiiiight.

Merry Christmas.
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:51 PM   #846
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:53 PM   #847
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Riiiiight.
No seriously, I will talk a ton of shit about you but I have never known you to run from an argument. Speaking of... care to weigh in on Cosmo's "different gun" assertions?
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:16 PM   #848
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I'm off to add some racing stripes to my Explorer and turn it into a mustang, be right back.
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:19 PM   #849
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I'm off to add some racing stripes to my Explorer and turn it into a mustang, be right back.
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And I thought the religious nuts were stupid.
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:19 PM   #850
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Somebody cue up a picture of a mini-14 with wood furniture and a 30rd mag and an AR with a bullet button, a thumbhole stock, and a pinned 30rd mag limited to 5rds and see if the libs can spot the "assault weapon".
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:21 PM   #851
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No seriously, I will talk a ton of shit about you but I have never known you to run from an argument.
I see no difference in what you said versus what is virtually always said every time I don't post for a few days -- that I'm running away from some argument, or some poster, or some thread. If there's some difference ("I was crossing my fingers as I typed that out!"), it's invisible to me.

I should mention that I don't give a flip either way, I just think it's a bewildering pattern, when you consider my considerable history on this forum, as well as the fact that I'm already like 200 posts strong in this thread.

If you want to back off the obvious implication you made that I was running away from a discussion, well then that's on you. I don't really care.

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Speaking of... care to weigh in on Cosmo's "different gun" assertions?
There's such a vast array of guns out there, that I treat it as functionally infinite. There's no line you can draw in gun bans, no line that I can think of, where there isn't compelling similarities between some legal firearm and some illegal one. Every time I've tried to look one up, it is quickly disproven by firearms experts who intimately know the vast array of firearms. It's the same thing with magazine limits -- should I want to limit legal magazines to 10 rounds, there's obviously little difference in a magazine that holds 10 rounds versus one that holds 12.

But that doesn't mean that kind of ban should not be done. The line I would personally draw would be semiautomatic weapons (though I often go with the skinnier category of assault weapons, since that's far more politically feasible), along with deep magazines, and certain kinds of ammunition. I believe the banning of these firearms, as imperfect the lines I may draw would be, would do more good than harm.

Earlier in the thread, Radar Chief was dispelling some useful information at how freaking difficult it is to acquire fully automatic weapons, should one be so inclined. I think a fair compromise position would be to make all semi-automatic weapons, along with deep mags and armor-piercing bullets for starters, subject to that kind of extreme scrutiny. But I'd prefer them to be altogether banned.
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:29 PM   #852
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Yeah, really. But apparently I can still win an argument with austinqueef on the topic.
Yea, um, when did that happen again?
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:32 PM   #853
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Yea, um, when did that happen again?
When you grow up getting pink ribbons for coming in last place.
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:34 PM   #854
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And I believe that for every lazy piece of worthless ****ing dogshit collecting foodstamps and welfare, one taxpayer should receive a subsidized beta-mag filled with M995 and a registered auto sear.
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:35 PM   #855
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When you grow up getting pink ribbons for coming in last place.
Ah the "every poster gets a trophy" liberal logic.
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