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Old 12-16-2012, 10:35 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Let's research gun violence.

I've said this in a couple other threads, but I don't believe that gun control is going to get any traction in Congress. Some Democrats will push for it, some other Republicans will table it, some pro-gun control folks like myself will cry foul, and yet another Congress will pass without any gun control measures seeing the light of day.

But here's one thing that maybe we can start doing: better educate ourselves on gun violence, so we can stop stabbing in the dark as to what we can better do to mitigate it.

The problem is that for a couple decades now, the government has not been able to produce any information on gun violence because the NRA has been threatening war if Congress failed to choke off all funding for gun-related research.

The CDC and NIH used to conduct research for decades, but around the time of the late 90s, the NRA became so powerful it was able to prevent these agencies from granting funds to researchers on those topics. McClatchy DC:

Quote:
The CDC and NIH award billions in grants. They fund research into cancer, brain injury, tobacco use, obesity, AIDS, abortion, hearing loss, allergies, infectious diseases, back pain and virtually everything else related to human health. But gun violence is the one area that carries that specific language. The effect has been to limit federal funding into research that could be used to shape policy.
This is irresponsible. We pass hundreds of gun-related laws across the country every few years. Like all laws, we should be able to research the impact of the laws we pass, so we can make decisions based on more than pure ideology.

Anyway, there's a ton of stories on this, but here's a really good one from last year in the Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/us...anted=all&_r=0

N.R.A. Stymies Firearms Research, Scientists Say
By MICHAEL LUO
Published: January 25, 2011

In the wake of the shootings in Tucson, the familiar questions inevitably resurfaced: Are communities where more people carry guns safer or less safe? Does the availability of high-capacity magazines increase deaths? Do more rigorous background checks make a difference?

The reality is that even these and other basic questions cannot be fully answered, because not enough research has been done. And there is a reason for that. Scientists in the field and former officials with the government agency that used to finance the great bulk of this research say the influence of the National Rife Association has all but choked off money for such work.

“We’ve been stopped from answering the basic questions,” said Mark Rosenberg, former director of the National Center for Injury Control and Prevention, part of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which was for about a decade the leading source of financing for firearms research.

Chris Cox, the N.R.A.’s chief lobbyist, said his group had not tried to squelch genuine scientific inquiries, just politically slanted ones.

“Our concern is not with legitimate medical science,” Mr. Cox said. “Our concern is they were promoting the idea that gun ownership was a disease that needed to be eradicated.”

The amount of money available today for studying the impact of firearms is a fraction of what it was in the mid-1990s, and the number of scientists toiling in the field has dwindled to just a handful as a result, researchers say.

The dearth of money can be traced in large measure to a clash between public health scientists and the N.R.A. in the mid-1990s. At the time, Dr. Rosenberg and others at the C.D.C. were becoming increasingly assertive about the importance of studying gun-related injuries and deaths as a public health phenomenon, financing studies that found, for example, having a gun in the house, rather than conferring protection, significantly increased the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.

Alarmed, the N.R.A. and its allies on Capitol Hill fought back. The injury center was guilty of “putting out papers that were really political opinion masquerading as medical science,” said Mr. Cox, who also worked on this issue for the N.R.A. more than a decade ago.

Initially, pro-gun lawmakers sought to eliminate the injury center completely, arguing that its work was “redundant” and reflected a political agenda. When that failed, they turned to the appropriations process. In 1996, Representative Jay Dickey, Republican of Arkansas, succeeded in pushing through an amendment that stripped $2.6 million from the disease control centers’ budget, the very amount it had spent on firearms-related research the year before.

“It’s really simple with me,” Mr. Dickey, 71 and now retired, said in a telephone interview. “We have the right to bear arms because of the threat of government taking over the freedoms that we have.”

The Senate later restored the money but designated it for research on traumatic brain injury. Language was also inserted into the centers’ appropriations bill that remains in place today: “None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”

The prohibition is striking, firearms researchers say, because there are already regulations that bar the use of C.D.C. money for lobbying for or against legislation. No other field of inquiry is singled out in this way.

In the end, researchers said, even though it is murky what exactly is allowed under this provision and what is not, the upshot is clear inside the centers: the agency should tread in this area only at its own peril.

“They had a near-death experience,” said Dr. Arthur Kellermann, whose study on the risks versus the benefits of having guns in the home became a focal point of attack by the N.R.A.

In the years since, the C.D.C. has been exceedingly wary of financing research focused on firearms. In its annual requests for proposals, for example, firearms research has been notably absent. Gail Hayes, spokeswoman for the centers, confirmed that since 1996, while the agency has issued requests for proposals that include the study of violence, which may include gun violence, it had not sent out any specifically on firearms.

“For policy to be effective, it needs to be based on evidence,” said Dr. Garen Wintemute, director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at the University of California, Davis, who had his C.D.C. financing cut in 1996. “The National Rifle Association and its allies in Congress have largely succeeded in choking off the development of evidence upon which that policy could be based.”

Private foundations initially stepped into the breach, but their attention tends to wax and wane, researchers said. They are also much more interested in work that leads to immediate results and less willing to finance basic epidemiological research that scientists say is necessary to establishing a foundation of knowledge about the connection between guns and violence, or the lack thereof.

The National Institute of Justice, part of the Justice Department, also used to finance firearms research, researchers said, but that money has also petered out in recent years. (Institute officials said they hoped to reinvigorate financing in this area.)

Stephen Teret, founding director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, estimated that the amount of money available for firearms research was a quarter of what it used to be. With so much uncertainty about financing, Mr. Teret said, the circle of academics who study the phenomenon has fallen off significantly.

After the centers’ clash with the N.R.A., Mr. Teret said he was asked by C.D.C. officials to “curtail some things I was saying about guns and gun policy.”

Mr. Teret objected, saying his public comments about gun policy did not come while he was on the “C.D.C. meter.” After he threatened to file a lawsuit against the agency, Mr. Teret said, the officials backed down and gave him “a little bit more leeway.”

C.D.C. financing for research on gun violence has not stopped completely, but it is now mostly limited to work in which firearms are only a component.

The centers also ask researchers it finances to give it a heads-up anytime they are publishing studies that have anything to do with firearms. The agency, in turn, relays this information to the N.R.A. as a courtesy, said Thomas Skinner, a spokesman for the centers.

Invariably, researchers said, whenever their work touches upon firearms, the C.D.C. becomes squeamish. In the end, they said, it is often simply easier to avoid the topic if they want to continue to be in the agency’s good graces.

Dr. Stephen Hargarten, professor and chairman of emergency medicine at the Medical College of Wisconsin, used to direct a research center, financed by the C.D.C., that focused on gun violence, but he said he had now shifted his attention to other issues.
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Old 12-29-2012, 07:57 AM   #1036
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Direkshun's being kind of a pain in the ass about it ("spreading more death"? Really?), but he's got a point. There are different levels of effectiveness of firearms, firearm accessories, and ammunition, and a major part of the gun control debate is predicated on where to draw the line between which are regulated, controlled, or outright forbidden, and which are not. We already have much of that in place: fully automatic weapons require the class 3, while semi-autos do not. It's the same thing, it's just a matter of where to draw that line.
Direcksun only seems capable of talking in buzzwords, rhetoric handed to him by someone else, and I'm tired of trying to educate someone that is unwilling to learn.

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Originally Posted by Aries Walker View Post
As for fully automatic weapons, CrazyPhuD, you have a point - sort of. Full-autos are used like that in the military, and inexperienced users would have a good chance of finding themselves suddenly out of ammo a lot. Imagine, though, if the Batman shooter guy had had one - with the darkness and chaos and closely-packed victims, he would have increased his casualty list by quite a bit. I think automatic weapons are regulated just fine the way they are - with the super-stringent restrictions that, by the way, are very effective in keeping them largely out of the hands of criminals.

I have to go to work today, but I'll check this thread when I can.
You've never fired a full automatic rifle have you? I know Hollywood makes it look as simple as point and click, like your mouse cursor in a first person shooter game. They would even have you believe you can cut an exit in a wall, floor, with one but real life doesn't work that way.
Hollywood would even have you believe Rambo can one hand an M-60 and lay down accurate fire, but the reason it looks so simple is because he's not firing a weapon. He's firing a prop that only shoots a short burst of air and butane that gets ignited at the end of the barrel to produce that huge, wicked looking flash that you never see in real life.
Where the military uses a full automatic rifle, machine gun, they're typically mounted on a bipod/tripod. The reason is, free handed a full automatic rifle is a writhing beast. The barrel wants to climb and as you fight that its shaking all over the place. Spray and pray works for keeping the enemies heads down but actually hitting anything that way is more luck than accurate fire.
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Old 12-29-2012, 08:05 AM   #1037
Aries Walker Aries Walker is offline
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(Responding to your first post Good point. I tend not to necessarily think of properly-trained, modern, US military soldiers when I use the term, so I stand corrected. Please read that instead as "like mobsters, spree shooters, and other criminals".
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Old 12-29-2012, 08:18 AM   #1038
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(Responding to your first post Good point. I tend not to necessarily think of properly-trained, modern, US military soldiers when I use the term, so I stand corrected. Please read that instead as "like mobsters, spree shooters, and other criminals".
No problem.
But the reason thugs shoot that way is because they're untrained and notoriously poor shots.
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Old 12-29-2012, 08:55 AM   #1039
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(To your second: ) I was thinking more along the lines of a MAC-10, or fully automatic Uzi. They can still deal out frightening amounts of damage, without being so large they need to be bolted down to a weapon wing. That's kind of their point.
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Old 12-29-2012, 08:59 AM   #1040
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I've shot a fully automatic weapon. Wasn't hard to hold it at all. Not sure what the caliber was, but thinking perhaps a .223
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:11 AM   #1041
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Originally Posted by Radar Chief View Post
Direcksun only seems capable of talking in buzzwords, rhetoric handed to him by someone else, and I'm tired of trying to educate someone that is unwilling to learn.



You've never fired a full automatic rifle have you? I know Hollywood makes it look as simple as point and click, like your mouse cursor in a first person shooter game. They would even have you believe you can cut an exit in a wall, floor, with one but real life doesn't work that way.
Hollywood would even have you believe Rambo can one hand an M-60 and lay down accurate fire, but the reason it looks so simple is because he's not firing a weapon. He's firing a prop that only shoots a short burst of air and butane that gets ignited at the end of the barrel to produce that huge, wicked looking flash that you never see in real life.
Where the military uses a full automatic rifle, machine gun, they're typically mounted on a bipod/tripod. The reason is, free handed a full automatic rifle is a writhing beast. The barrel wants to climb and as you fight that its shaking all over the place. Spray and pray works for keeping the enemies heads down but actually hitting anything that way is more luck than accurate fire.
bravo!..in basic, you get to fire the M16 once on auto, and they won't let you just go hog wild ...three round burst...fired the .50 cal also...and without tracer rounds, you wouldn't have a clue...even with a smaller caliber weapon, accuracy is compromised, and you'd waste ammo.
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:27 AM   #1042
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(To your second: ) I was thinking more along the lines of a MAC-10, or fully automatic Uzi. They can still deal out frightening amounts of damage, without being so large they need to be bolted down to a weapon wing. That's kind of their point.
Ok, you mentioned the Aurora, CO shooter so I was adressing the M-16, the military version of what he used.
Not a fan of the MAC 10 but the Uzi is a quality piece. Both are shooting a handgun round, 9mm, and are more controllable than a rifle on full auto but still subject to the same physics.
Even a skilled shooter fires it in short burst and has trouble controlling the barrel climb.



Yes, a fully auto Uzi probably would have killed more with fewer injured at the Aurora movie theater but that IMO would be due more to the caliber of bullet shot than the weapon used to shoot it.
The .223 bullet the AR shoots is just not a very good killer for anything weighing 100 lbs or better, particularly not at short range. The .223 bullet is moving so fast that at close range just pokes a <1/4" hole straight through someone and doesn't stick around long enough to expand and deliver it's energy into the target.
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:30 AM   #1043
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I've shot a fully automatic weapon. Wasn't hard to hold it at all. Not sure what the caliber was, but thinking perhaps a .223
Watch the Gunny. He's an experience shooter, standing fairly close to the target and he's still spraying all over it.

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Old 12-29-2012, 09:32 AM   #1044
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bravo!..in basic, you get to fire the M16 once on auto, and they won't let you just go hog wild ...three round burst...fired the .50 cal also...and without tracer rounds, you wouldn't have a clue...even with a smaller caliber weapon, accuracy is compromised, and you'd waste ammo.
Mah Duece is a bad bitch, isn't she.
It just emits the kind of sound that even if your standing behind it makes you want to duck for cover. Can't imagine the horror of being on the business end of it.
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:45 AM   #1045
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Mah Duece is a bad bitch, isn't she.
It just emits the kind of sound that even if your standing behind it makes you want to duck for cover. Can't imagine the horror of being on the business end of it.


You just don't get the effect of the noise that thing emits from the video but it's pretty cool anyway.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:05 PM   #1046
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Watch the Gunny. He's an experience shooter, standing fairly close to the target and he's still spraying all over it.

Good Lord, though. If Holmes had had a fully auto M-16 like Ermey did in this video, his kill count would have skyrocketed.

For further evidence, imagine this beast let loose in that dark, smokey, surprised movie theater. It's the full auto version of what Holmes used.



This is what Direckshun was getting at when he said it's a matter of where you draw the line. The full-auto AR-15 shown here is illegal (now) without a Class 3 Federal Firearms License, for good reason. I think (hope) that we can all agree that that is the appropriate restriction for a fully automatic AR-15. Beyond that, we can debate about what else should similarly restricted, but I would hope we have at least that as a starting point.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:34 PM   #1047
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Good Lord, though. If Holmes had had a fully auto M-16 like Ermey did in this video, his kill count would have skyrocketed.

For further evidence, imagine this beast let loose in that dark, smokey, surprised movie theater. It's the full auto version of what Holmes used.

Looks scary I know but throwing more lead doesn't automatically mean you score more hits.
R Lee Ermy is a pretty experienced shooter, he was standing less than 30 yards away from a target that was about 4' in diameter emptying a 30 round mag and only hitting the target about 20 times. Take the same situation but putting the gun to his shoulder, firing semi-auto and he wouldn't miss the target once.

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This is what Direckshun was getting at when he said it's a matter of where you draw the line. The full-auto AR-15 shown here is illegal (now) without a Class 3 Federal Firearms License, for good reason. I think (hope) that we can all agree that that is the appropriate restriction for a fully automatic AR-15. Beyond that, we can debate about what else should similarly restricted, but I would hope we have at least that as a starting point.
Direcksun hasn't been saying gun laws are about right where they are, he's been calling for sweeping changes and does so with no apparent clue as to what makes one gun different from another.
He and the dems like him are using dead children to push an agenda they had shelved for just the right tragedy to come along. Your first clue should be that they're using Sandy Hook to push for an assault rifle ban when an assault rifle wasn't even used there.
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Old 12-29-2012, 01:39 PM   #1048
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That's kind of splitting hairs; the term 'assault rifle' is pretty vague, so it tends to be used by gun control advocates to describe military-looking carbines. The M4 wasn't (from what I understand) one of the specific weapons outlawed under the 1994 ban, but it's a carbine based on the AR-15, and that's enough for a lot of people to perceive it as an assault rifle. I think it's fair to say that the next time an assault weapons ban gets proposed (probably soon), it will include the AR-15 and its derivatives.

Be that as it may, I don't see the current push for gun control legislation as predatory Democrats wringing their hands and cheering for dead kindergartners so they can ram their Fascist agendas down an unsuspecting public's collective throats. It's more based on outrage - Obama has done very, very little about gun control over the previous four years (even after Gaby Giffords was shot in the head in what would seem to be a perfect catalyst to ignite the debate), and now we have an unspeakable tragedy perpetrated by a clearly disturbed individual who shouldn't have been let anywhere near so much as an Airsoft gun.

This is the right time to talk about it, and I'm all for that. Even if not one law ends up getting changed, at least bringing it to the floor is the right thing to do in the wake of the shooting. (I'd also like us to make some headway in mental health care and the way the media covers spree killers, but that's a whole 'nother thread.)
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Old 12-29-2012, 02:20 PM   #1049
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Originally Posted by Aries Walker View Post
That's kind of splitting hairs; the term 'assault rifle' is pretty vague, so it tends to be used by gun control advocates to describe military-looking carbines. The M4 wasn't (from what I understand) one of the specific weapons outlawed under the 1994 ban, but it's a carbine based on the AR-15, and that's enough for a lot of people to perceive it as an assault rifle. I think it's fair to say that the next time an assault weapons ban gets proposed (probably soon), it will include the AR-15 and its derivatives.

Be that as it may, I don't see the current push for gun control legislation as predatory Democrats wringing their hands and cheering for dead kindergartners so they can ram their Fascist agendas down an unsuspecting public's collective throats. It's more based on outrage - Obama has done very, very little about gun control over the previous four years (even after Gaby Giffords was shot in the head in what would seem to be a perfect catalyst to ignite the debate), and now we have an unspeakable tragedy perpetrated by a clearly disturbed individual who shouldn't have been let anywhere near so much as an Airsoft gun.

This is the right time to talk about it, and I'm all for that. Even if not one law ends up getting changed, at least bringing it to the floor is the right thing to do in the wake of the shooting. (I'd also like us to make some headway in mental health care and the way the media covers spree killers, but that's a whole 'nother thread.)
"Splitting hairs" what are you talking about?
Lets try this again, a rifle was not used at Sandy Hook. Adam Lanza did all of his killing with handguns. Four of them as a matter of fact. That's not splitting hairs that is a fact as reported by the county sherrif.
Why then are dems trying to make this about assault rifles?



There's even evidence there was no assualt rifle in the trunk of Lanza's car either. Assuming this is actually the video of the police clearing the gun they found in the trunk of his car that is a shotgun.
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Old 12-29-2012, 02:24 PM   #1050
stevieray stevieray is offline
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reactionary BS to make people feel better about themselves at the expense of others tragedies.

no better than ambulance chasing lawyers.
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