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Old 12-27-2012, 01:36 AM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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More gun control = fewer gun deaths.

The Legal Community Against Violence conducted a study where they compared the rigidity of the gun control laws in all 50 states and the gun-related deaths.

Their conclusion:

Quote:
Our ranking reveals that many of the states with the strongest gun laws
also have the lowest gun death rates. Conversely, many states with the weakest gun laws have the
highest gun death rates. Although it is beyond the scope of this publication to demonstrate a causal
relationship between state gun laws and gun death rates, the data provides support for the argument
that gun laws are a signifi cant factor in a state’s rate of gun deaths.vi More research is needed to
determine the precise relationship between state gun laws and gun death rates.
Here's the study, it's an insanely easy read, I'd recommend checking it out. I included the article below as a casual summary of the study's findings.

The recommendations of the study:

Quote:
BEST PRACTICES

DEALER LAWS
  • Require all fi rearms dealers to obtain a license and pass a background check (CA, HI, MA, NJ, PA, RI, WA)
  • Prohibit dealers in residential and other sensitive areas (MA)
  • Require employee background checks (CT, DE, NJ, VA, WA)
  • Require security measures (AL, CA, CT, MA, MN, NJ, PA, RI, WV)
  • Require sales record reporting to state and local law enforcement (CT)
PRIVATE SALE LAWS
  • Require all fi rearm transfers are to be conducted through licensed dealers (CA)
  • If transfers are not conducted through dealers, require private sellers to: 1) conduct background checks
    through a central law enforcement agency (RI); 2) maintain sales records for a lengthy period (IL);
    or 3) report sales to state and local law enforcement (MA)
AMMUNITION LAWS
  • Require sellers to be licensed (MA)
  • Require sales record-keeping (CA — handgun ammunition)vii
  • Require license to purchase or posses ammunition (IL, MA)
  • Require ammunition sellers to store ammunition safely (CA — handgun ammunition)viii
  • Require handgun microstamping (technology that allows a fi rearm to imprint a serial number
    and other information onto a cartridge case when fi red) (CA)
ASSAULT WEAPONS
  • Defi ne assault weapon based on generic features that characterize assault weapons and use
    one-feature test (CA for rifl es and pistols, NJ for shotguns)
  • Prohibit broad range of activities such as possession, manufacture, sale (CA, CT, NJ have the
    broadest prohibitions)
  • If weapons possessed prior to the ban are grandfathered, require registration with strict limits
    on transferability, use and storage (CA, CT)
LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION MAGAZINES
  • Defi ne “large capacity ammunition magazine” to include magazines capable of holding in excess
    of 10 rounds (HI, CA, MA, NY)
  • Apply ban to large capacity ammunition magazines for use with all fi rearms (CA, MD, MA, NJ, NY)
  • Prohibit broad range of activities such as possession, manufacture, sale (NJ, NY are the
    most comprehensive)
  • Do not grandfather magazines possessed prior to the ban (HI, MD, NJ)
FIFTY CALIBER RIFLES
  • Prohibit broad range of activities such as possession, manufacture, sale (CA)
  • If weapons possessed prior to the ban are grandfathered, require registration with strict limits
    on transferability, use and storage (CA)
LICENSING
  • Require license for possession of any fi rearm, and require license to be shown prior to
    purchase of any fi rearm (IL, MA)
  • Require background check for license (HI, IL, MA, NJ), (handguns — CT, IA, MI, NY, NC)
  • Require safety training and/or testing (MA), (handguns — CA, CT, HI, MI, RI)
  • Limit duration of license (HI, IL, MA), (handguns — CA, CT, IA, MI, NJ, NC)
  • Require background check and testing for renewal (MA)
REGISTRATION
  • Require registration for all fi rearms (HI)
  • Include identifying information about owner, fi rearm, and source from which fi rearm was obtained (HI)
  • Require retention of fi rearm sales records (CA — handguns)
CARRYING CONCEALED FIREARMS
  • Prohibit carrying of concealed fi rearms (IL, WI)
  • If concealed carry is allowed, require a permit and give the issuer discretion based on strict guidelines (AL,
    CA, DE, HI, MA, NJ, NY, RI issue permits only for good cause to persons of good character)
OPENLY CARRYING FIRERAMS
  • Prohibit open carry of handguns (FL, IL, TX)
  • Prohibit open carry of long guns (FL, MA, MN)
LOCAL AUTHORITY
  • Allow broad local regulation of fi rearms (CT, HI, IL, MA, NJ, NY)
  • If broad local regulation is not allowed, allow substantial regulation (CA, NE)
Gun control absolutely must be part of any package designed to reduce gun violence.

http://www.standard.net/stories/2012...ess-gun-deaths

Study: States with more gun control have less gun deaths
By Bob Egelko, San Francisco Chronicle
Wed, 12/26/2012 - 1:03pm

Connecticut has more restrictions on gun ownership than most states, so gun-rights advocates argue the Dec. 14 schoolhouse massacre there illustrates the futility of gun control.

But a new study by a pro-gun control San Francisco organization reaches the opposite conclusion: States with the most restrictive laws, including Connecticut and California, have lower rates of gun-related deaths, while states with few limits on firearms have the highest rates.

In 2009 and 2010, the most recent years for which information is available, California had the nation’s strongest gun controls and the ninth-lowest rate of gun deaths, according to the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence, which favors firearms regulation. Connecticut had the fourth-strongest gun laws and was sixth-lowest in gun deaths, while Hawaii ranked fifth in gun control and had the lowest death rate.

At the other end of the scale, the report found that Alaska, Louisiana and Montana -- all graded F for gun control -- had the highest rates of deaths caused by gunfire, more than double California’s rate. The law center graded all 50 states and gave an F, for weak regulation, to 24 of them.

In 2010, the report said, quoting the federal Centers for Disease Control, California had 7.88 gun deaths for each 100,000 residents, compared with rates of 3.31 in Hawaii and 20.28 in Alaska.

More research is needed on the links between specific weapons regulations and fatalities, but “the data supports the common-sense conclusion that gun laws are a significant factor in a state’s rate of gun deaths,” said the report.

Since the report’s release last month, The Chronicle has forwarded it for comment to four gun-rights organizations: the National Rifle Association, the National Shooting Sports Foundation, Gun Owners of America and its state affiliate, Gun Owners of California. None replied to calls or e-mails.

Other recent studies have reached similar conclusions. A researcher at the University of Alabama at Birmingham reported in July that states requiring comprehensive background checks before gun purchases had lower death rates than those without such requirements.

But as long as the federal government leaves gun regulations largely up to each state, the effectiveness of any state’s laws is inherently limited, said Laura Cutiletta, an attorney at the law center that conducted the study.

California, for example, bans most semiautomatic rifles, including the Bushmaster .223 that Adam Lanza used to kill 20 students and six educators at a Newtown, Conn., elementary school this month. But the rifles are legal in neighboring Nevada, and can be taken easily -- though illegally -- to California.

The Bushmaster is also legal in Connecticut, a circumstance that Cutiletta said illustrates the modest level of gun regulation even in states ranked high in the law center’s survey.

While Connecticut is one of about 10 states with any restrictions on semiautomatic rifles, it prohibits them only if they have certain additional features, such as a pistol grip and a folding or collapsible stock.

The Bushmaster that Lanza reportedly used-was a version of the widely sold AR-15 rifle, and had been legally purchased by his mother, whom he killed before taking her guns and heading to the school.

A federal assault weapons law, in effect from 1994 to 2004, also banned semiautomatic weapons only if they had specific features. Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., sponsored that law after a gunman used assault weapons to kill eight people and then took his own life at 101 California St. in San Francisco.

Feinstein is proposing a more far-reaching national law in the wake of the Newtown bloodbath.

Although the federal law has been widely regarded as ineffectual, Cutiletta cited a 2004 study commissioned by President George W. Bush’s Justice Department that found assault weapon use in gun crimes dropped by 17 to 72 percent in six cities during the decade. On the other hand, use of large-caliber ammunition magazines increased through the late 1990s, probably because the ban did not apply to weapons acquired before 1994, the study said.
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Old 12-28-2012, 08:26 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
The false dilemma (or false dichotomy) is a fallacy of reasoning that omits consideration of all reasonable alternatives.

Hubb omits reasonable alternatives to the two perspectives on gun control she mentions.

Hubb has committed a false dilemma.
Once again, are you a politician?
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Old 12-28-2012, 08:27 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
Once again, are you a politician?
If this is a reference to something, I'm missing it.

If it's an honest question about my personal life, it's irrelevent to the discussion, and I don't discuss my personal life on this board.
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Old 12-28-2012, 08:28 PM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
If this is a reference to something, I'm missing it.

If it's an honest question about my personal life, it's irrelevent to the discussion, and I don't discuss my personal life on this board.
No. It's not irrelevant at all. It directly affects the meaning of that quote.
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Old 12-28-2012, 08:31 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
No. It's not irrelevant at all. It directly affects the meaning of that quote.
I don't follow? It's a bit obtuse for me.
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Old 12-28-2012, 08:39 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I don't follow? It's a bit obtuse for me.
I know. That's the problem. The same problem that Austin Chief has pointed out. Reading comprehension, and then the ability to process that information. That's the problem that keeps you from identifying that gun related homicides are a meaningful statistic when discussing gun control legislation, but "gun deaths" are not. Or that Austin Chief stated that "leftist asshats like you" are creating a conspiracy, not necessarily that you are creating a conspiracy within this thread. Or that the views of a politician, who has influence over legislation, can be inferred by their interpretation of our founding document where a private citizen who isn't in that position wouldn't be judged in the same way.
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Old 12-28-2012, 08:41 PM   #186
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This is a great video...

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Old 12-28-2012, 08:41 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
Hupp is quoted as having said, "How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded over, controlled, supervised, and taken care of."
Read it again.
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:08 PM   #188
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Here's another great quote. It comes from Thomas Jefferson's legal "commonplace book." A commonplace book is a notebook, it was sometimes used by students for instance to log important ideas. He chose a passage from Cesare Beccaria's Essay on Crimes and Punishments. It shows that this concept (in that he chose to record this) is an idea that was important to him. Here it is as translated from Latin in 1809:

"A principal source of errors and injustice are false ideas of utility. For example: that legislator has false ideas of utility who considers particular more than general conveniencies, who had rather command the sentiments of mankind than excite them, who dares say to reason, 'Be thou a slave;' who would sacrifice a thousand real advantages to the fear of an imaginary or trifling inconvenience; who would deprive men of the use of fire for fear of their being burnt, and of water for fear of their being drowned; and who knows of no means of preventing evil but by destroying it.

The laws of this nature are those which forbid to wear arms, disarming those only who are not disposed to commit the crime which the laws mean to prevent. Can it be supposed, that those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity, and the most important of the code, will respect the less considerable and arbitrary injunctions, the violation of which is so easy, and of so little comparative importance? Does not the execution of this law deprive the subject of that personal liberty, so dear to mankind and to the wise legislator? and does it not subject the innocent to all the disagreeable circumstances that should only fall on the guilty? It certainly makes the situation of the assaulted worse, and of the assailants better, and rather encourages than prevents murder, as it requires less courage to attack unarmed than armed persons."

Jefferson made the following note under that passage:

"False idee di utilita."

In English that would be:

"False ideas of utility."
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:19 PM   #189
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It's amazing how appropriate that is to today's situation...
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:33 PM   #190
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It's amazing how appropriate that is to today's situation...
It's amazing to me that people who are arguing for more gun legislation sometimes attempt to dismiss the relevance of the second amendment. That they would paint the founding fathers as relics of a bygone age with no bearing on modern thought. In doing so they dismiss one of the building blocks of our country, and do a tremendous disservice to the memories of many truly brilliant people.
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:47 PM   #191
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I disagree, however the the reality for some people is formed at a young age and anything that is outside of that box is difficult for them. I think many go through life with the ability to apply logic to their expanding knowledge and experience~
Actually they don't—not across the board. For one familiarity with a subject is necessary to spot things that don't fit or make sense. Then there's the ability to differentiate—that is correctly categorize things which are similar, dissimilar, different or the same. Often, there's missing information which can lead to false conclusions due to the seen versus the unseen. Time can be missing or there's a false sequence. The ability to spot each of these things, plus more has to be taught. It is not always native even when we think it is. There's also different kinds of logic and reasoning. When people only attack others with insults or on a personal level—obviously ALL logic has ceased.
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:49 PM   #192
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It's amazing how appropriate that is to today's situation...
It's amazing that some can see how appropriate it is when one considers the nature of man and the nature of power. These things do not change.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:02 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
This is amazing.

These are all caricatures of my positions, strawmen fallacies you've committed. This is all just on the topic of gun control.

But once again, I'm the one who can't understand what's being said to me. I'm the one who's lost. I'm the one who's intentionally tanking the conversastion.

Makes... perfect sense.
The so called "strawmen" are in fact the logical and necessary conclusions to your positions. The fact that you can't see that is further proof of your stupidity. The difference here is that I understand completely what you are trying to say. I just think you are wrong. You on the other hand don't have the intellectual capacity to actually follow along in the debate.

As I have stated many times now, it's frustrating as hell to constantly have to dumb things down so you can keep up.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:23 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Alrighty.
Since you are obviously too stupid to know this.. here is a simple proof for you. (it's stolen, I can't take credit for it)

1. All logical concepts are either learned or innate.
2. If learned, a logical concept is acquired through hypothesis-testing.
3. If a logical concept is acquired through hypothesis-testing, neither the formulation of the hypothesis nor the methods used to test it can invoke the concept.
4. In determining the meaning of a term denoting a primitive logical concept,learners make use of the concept to be acquired, if not in framing the hypothesisthen in testing it.
5. So, primitive logical concepts cannot be acquired through hypothesis-testing.
6. Therefore, primitive logical concepts are not learned.
7. And, therefore, primitive logical concepts are innate
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:27 PM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Since you are obviously too stupid to know this.. here is a simple proof for you. (it's stolen, I can't take credit for it)

1. All logical concepts are either learned or innate.
2. If learned, a logical concept is acquired through hypothesis-testing.
3. If a logical concept is acquired through hypothesis-testing, neither the formulation of the hypothesis nor the methods used to test it can invoke the concept.
4. In determining the meaning of a term denoting a primitive logical concept,learners make use of the concept to be acquired, if not in framing the hypothesis then in testing it.
5. So, primitive logical concepts cannot be acquired through hypothesis-testing.
6. Therefore, primitive logical concepts are not learned.
7. And, therefore, primitive logical concepts are innate
Twenty bucks he argues with you about what constitutes a primitive logical concept. No, I'm kidding. I'm too cheap to bet twenty bucks.
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This is a test for a client's site.
A new website that shows member-created construction site listings that need fill or have excess fill. Dirt Monkey @ https://DirtMonkey.net
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