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Old 01-11-2013, 08:27 AM  
oldandslow oldandslow is online now
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The "bearing arms" debate...

Let me first provide this caveat...I am a hunter. I own 8 guns ranging from a 30-6 to a .22. Couple of shotguns for bird hunting mixed in...

Second, I grant the 2nd amendment arguments. I believe the framers of the constitution meant that YOU could own the finest musket available. Period.

Still, isn't this whole debate about where to draw the line and how you define "arms."

I mean no one is arguing for your right to own a tank, bazooka, tomahawk missle, or nuke....right?

So how about an AK 47 or M-16 that is fully automatic...do we favor that?

Or an M-60 machine gun...should you be able to own one of those?

I guess what I am saying is that not even the most avid arms enthusiast argues that a private citizen should own an intercontinental ballistic nuclear missile...Yet clearly that falls under "arms."

The debate over arms, imo, is an argument over "the line" that we draw when we define arms.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:30 PM   #91
CrazyPhuD CrazyPhuD is offline
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For the record I support the right to arm bears.
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:33 PM   #92
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
My site, Monticello.org:

For almost 90 years, Monticello has been maintained and kept open to the public by the Thomas Jefferson Foundation, Inc., which owns over 2,500 acres of Jefferson's 5,000-acre plantation. As a private, nonprofit 501(c)3 corporation, the Foundation receives no ongoing federal, state, or local funding in support of its dual mission of preservation and education.

Your source - a fiction book written in 2007

No one had ever seen the quote prior to appearing in the book of fiction and no one has been able to attribute it to him since then.

Can you ever just ****ing admit you're as gullible as a child?
That's not my source.I was just pointing out where it was first claimed to be stated. I am discussing it is all. You're shooting the messenger, now. Again, can't read, rely on assumptions. BTW, that it was first found there was on wiki, which is reported to not always be accurate too. And that site is not the only authority on Jefferson.

Can't you just admit you can't read.
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:03 PM   #93
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On Scalia

What is odd, is that wikipedia under Scalia's name says he claims to be an originalist but on the same page says he claims to be a strict constructionist—not really the exact same thing. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonin_Scalia)

Then looking up "strict construction" Wikipedia states that Scalia says he is "not a strict constructionist and no one ought to be, and that he also says "[a] text should not be construed strictly, and it should not be construed leniently; it should be construed reasonably, to contain all that it fairly means." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_constructionism)
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:13 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aries Walker View Post
So, Justice Scalia.


He says - and I actually tend to agree with him on this point - that the use of the word bear means that the Second Amendment only applies to weapons which can be carried, so there go your cannons, your missile launcher, your nuclear warheads.
That's regarding the word "bear." The Amendment reads "keep and bear arms"—not just the word bear. We discussed "keep" earlier.
No one can carry around a cannon obviously.
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
Quote:
He continues by pointing out the obvious next argument, which is "What about rocket launchers"? He doesn't give a direct answer to that, but he does say that the benchmark would be "What limitations are within the understood limitation that the society had at the time?" As the society at the time has no hand-held missile launchers, automatic weapons, flamethrowers, or bazookas, and they had only the most primitive of hand grenades, I feel comfortable with the level of strictness (or outright illegality) we have on these weapons.
If that's his logic, then typewriters, phones, cell phone texts, computers were also limited by society at that time relegating the First Amendment to writing on parchment with a turkey feather.

Quote:
The logical conclusion is that the Second Amendment was not written to allow the average citizen access to any and every weapon in the military arsenal, then or now. The entirety of the gun debate is arguing where to draw the line between allowable, and too much.
I already said I disagreed that his conclusion or yours is logical, but I was finishing up with cosmos and didn't have time to look at your whole post but did now. ( I posted the points on whether he is a strict or originalist constructionist or not additionally in a separate post.)

Where, I'd say it is not absolute or has any limits is at the state level without bans, because I think incorporation of the 14th doesn't apply under originalist construction. The idea of having a BoRs came from the states. Yes, I know the SC clarified Heller later by incorporating.
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Old 01-12-2013, 07:20 AM   #95
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Scalia, needs a few lessons from Judge Napolitano

and some of the others on the court too
From Judge Andrew P. Napolitano's column

There have been practical historical reasons for the near universal historical acceptance of the individual possession of this right. The dictators and monsters of the 20th century -- from Stalin to Hitler, from Castro to Pol Pot, from Mao to Assad -- have disarmed their people, and only because some of those people resisted the disarming were all eventually enabled to fight the dictators for freedom. Sometimes they lost. Sometimes they won.
The principal reason the colonists won the American Revolution is that they possessed weapons equivalent in power and precision to those of the British government. If the colonists had been limited to crossbows that they had registered with the king’s government in London, while the British troops used gunpowder when they fought us here, George Washington and Jefferson would have been captured and hanged.
We also defeated the king’s soldiers because they didn’t know who among us was armed, because there was no requirement of a permission slip from the government in order to exercise the right to self-defense. (Imagine the howls of protest if permission were required as a precondition to exercising the freedom of speech.) Today, the limitations on the power and precision of the guns we can lawfully own not only violate our natural right to self-defense and our personal sovereignties; they assure that a tyrant can more easily disarm and overcome us.

The historical reality of the Second Amendment’s protection of the right to keep and bear arms is not that it protects the right to shoot deer. It protects the right to shoot tyrants, and it protects the right to shoot at them effectively, thus, with the same instruments they would use upon us. If the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto had had the firepower and ammunition that the Nazis did, some of Poland might have stayed free and more persons would have survived the Holocaust.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/...#ixzz2HlrH7n2n


Don't forget the new police vehicles, folks.

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Old 01-12-2013, 07:25 AM   #96
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One more paragraph....

with KChiefer in mind:

Most people in government reject natural rights and personal sovereignty. Most people in government believe that the exercise of everyone’s rights is subject to the will of those in the government. Most people in government believe that they can write any law and regulate any behavior, not subject to the natural law, not subject to the sovereignty of individuals, not cognizant of history’s tyrants, but subject only to what they can get away with.
Most people confuse positive law with natural law and their corresponding rights which are not the same thing.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/...#ixzz2HlsWKJsn
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Old 01-12-2013, 07:41 AM   #97
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Stupid things leftists say ( No they are not liberals.The Nanny State is not liberal)

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo:
"No one hunts with an assault rifle. No one needs 10 bullets to kill a deer. End the madness now."
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Old 01-12-2013, 07:46 AM   #98
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From: The Libertarian Eye

Before people start demanding stricter gun laws because a 16 year shot a classmate at Taft High School today. Here are some gun laws that were passed in 1968 that are still valid. Maybe we have to realize that people are the problem not the guns.

FIREARMS AND FEDERAL LAW: THE GUN CONTROL ACT OF 1968

The new federal prohibition barred licensees from the knowing transfer of a gun or ammunition to:
(1) Minors (under eighteen for shotguns and rifles; under twenty-one for handguns).

(2) Persons convicted of a state or federal felony, as well as the fugitives and defendants under indictment covered by the F.F.A.

(3) Adjudicated mental defectives and any person who had been committed to a mental institution.

(4) Persons who are* unlawful users of or "addicted to marijuana or any depressant or stimulant drug . . . or narcotic drug."
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