Home Mail MemberMap Chat (0) Wallpapers
Go Back   ChiefsPlanet > The Lounge > D.C.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-11-2013, 04:09 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $23999
Question for the pro-life crowd...

I've been reading a lot about abortion this week, particularly a lot from the pro-life perspective about right to life and all that jazz. I've been doing a lot of reflection on the topic, so I was hoping I could get some earnest reflection back from you.

I am pro-choice, of course, but I see the logic of the pro-life argument, even as I disagree with it.

One major issue I've with the pro-life crowd, however, is that this crowd almost always tends to be particularly conservative and anti-government. Which, to my mind, creates a practical issue with your position.

Now, I know what you're thinking, and no, I'm not going where you think -- I don't like argument often made by pro-choicers that "conservatives are supposed to be the small government party, yet here they are supporting governmental power over every woman's medical decision" because, while I think that's a fair point, I think you could easily argue that most people have exceptions to their ideologies; that's just the way people work. It's a complex world, and exceptions reign -- if I'm a hardcore conservative, I think it's still reasonable for me to support a ban on abortion due to the intensity and importance of the issue, even if it might conflict with my otherwise stout anti-government views. So I don't adopt that argument.

Here's my big hang-up with the conservative pro-life position:

A conservative pro-lifer simultaneously believes that:

(1.) Life is sacrosanct, and must be protected and preserved, and

(2.) government should either
(a.) provide as little or minimal economic assistance and relief to the people as possible, or
(b.) not be in the business of providing economic relief and services to people at all. (This is more of a libertarian position.)
To me, this perspective says simply: every soul with a chance to be born must be born, but once you're born, you're on your own.

Most fetuses who are aborted for non-medical reasons are most likely being aborted because their potential families do not want them for personal or even economic reasons. I'm not excusing this, but it is what it is. Forcing them to be born with an abortion ban puts them in these shit situations, and it's going to lead to a greater possibility of poor education, poverty, and crime than those who are born to families that actually wanted them.

Other times, they'll be effectively orphaned as the families who don't want them leave them in the street or put them up for adoption. Some will be adopted, but adopting is an insanely hard practice (and it should be -- you don't want to risk exploitation of these children), it's expensive, and it's nowhere remotely close to the rate of the children available for adoption -- and that's right now, without an abortion ban.

There's also the education perspective, for instance. As it stands now, most conservatives would probably side with getting rid of the Department of Education and embracing fully private schools. That puts innocent children whose only crime was to come out of the wrong vagina at an even greater disadvantage when it comes to being the properly-adjusted productive soul that pro-lifers believe every soul should be.

So my question to the conservative pro-lifers among us:

Assuming we ever achieve your dream of an abortion ban, are there policies that YOU PERSONALLY SUPPORT to provide aid to children who have been born under the ban that otherwise wouldn't have?

Thanks in advance for your thoughtful answers.

I know this is an abortion thread, but my hope is that this thread can be reflective and respectful, even as we might start to disagree.
Posts: 46,886
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 04:50 PM   #61
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $23999
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco View Post
As far as I can tell, D, you're basically asking me how much I'd be willing to pay to get you to stop murdering babies.
You have me all wrong. All wrong.

To say nothing of a dirt-low assessment of my character.

That's disappointing, considering the source.
__________________
Posts: 46,886
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 04:50 PM   #62
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $23999
Quote:
Originally Posted by DementedLogic View Post
Yes.

Once upon a time, the abortion rate was near zero, the government did not provide welfare programs, and children were not dying in the streets.
Link?
__________________
Posts: 46,886
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 06:03 PM   #63
DementedLogic DementedLogic is offline
Starter
 

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Seattle, WA
Casino cash: $5045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Link?
FDR signed the Social Security Act in 1935. This is what started government economic assistance for children. Prior to 1935, the abortion rate was almost zero.
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/poli...tedstates.html

Attached is a graph of child fatality rates over a period of time that encompasses 1935. I doubt you can locate 1935 on this graph, showing that there is no correlation between government economic assistance for children and child fatality rate.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	F8_large.jpg
Views:	53
Size:	51.7 KB
ID:	103307  
Posts: 768
DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 06:08 PM   #64
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $23999
Quote:
Originally Posted by DementedLogic View Post
FDR signed the Social Security Act in 1935. This is what started government economic assistance for children. Prior to 1935, the abortion rate was almost zero.
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/poli...tedstates.html

Attached is a graph of child fatality rates over a period of time that encompasses 1935. I doubt you can locate 1935 on this graph, showing that there is no correlation between government economic assistance for children and child fatality rate.
I don't quite understand the specific argument you're making.

Are you suggesting that decreasing the amount of aid we give children would translate to fewer children dying in the streets?
__________________
Posts: 46,886
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 06:09 PM   #65
RedNeckRaider RedNeckRaider is offline
Got highway?
 
RedNeckRaider's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Close to the big pond~
Casino cash: $11369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
You have me all wrong. All wrong.

To say nothing of a dirt-low assessment of my character.

That's disappointing, considering the source.
I thought he high balled your online character. I have no idea how you are in real life, but the cartoon you play here is just what you want it to be...a shitbag. wait I just played your game didn't I~
__________________
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump.
David Ormsby Gore~
Posts: 24,705
RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 11:25 PM   #66
DementedLogic DementedLogic is offline
Starter
 

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Seattle, WA
Casino cash: $5045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I don't quite understand the specific argument you're making.

Are you suggesting that decreasing the amount of aid we give children would translate to fewer children dying in the streets?
You seem to not understand how people can be pro-life but not support welfare programs. In order to have that confusion, you must believe that welfare programs decrease child fatality rates. I'm showing you that you are wrong. If you were right, you would be able to look at the graph I posted, and pin-point the creation of the welfare state in 1935.

You also asked me to provide links that show that children weren't dying in the streets before welfare came along and abortion was virtually non-existent. I provided links that showed that neither welfare nor abortion have affected child fatality rates.

Conclusion: It is extremely easy to reconcile being pro-life with being against welfare. They are independent topics. Your attempt to combine them into 1 issue didn't work.
Posts: 768
DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.DementedLogic must have mowed badgirl's lawn.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 12:23 AM   #67
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
Bless FSU!
 
BucEyedPea's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: None of your business
Casino cash: $23806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock View Post
You are right, they were working in mines and shoe factories.
Which was better than begging on the streets for food. Eventually, parents were able to take them out of those places and put them in school as incomes rose—all of which happened before such things were outlawed by the Federal govt. The Federal govt is usually behind the curve.
__________________
“The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the legislature.” ~ James Madison, Father of the Constitution

“We do not believe in aggressive or preventive war. Such war is the weapon of dictators, not of free democratic countries like the United States.”~ Truman, Sept 1, 1950
Posts: 59,907
BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 08:35 AM   #68
Brock Brock is offline
Do it.
 
Brock's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Larryville
Casino cash: $6777
Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Which was better than begging on the streets for food. Eventually, parents were able to take them out of those places and put them in school as incomes rose—all of which happened before such things were outlawed by the Federal govt. The Federal govt is usually behind the curve.
I suggest you do a little more reading. These kids were "orphans". They're the same kids who now number in the hundreds of thousands in our current foster systems.
Posts: 42,980
Brock is obviously part of the inner Circle.Brock is obviously part of the inner Circle.Brock is obviously part of the inner Circle.Brock is obviously part of the inner Circle.Brock is obviously part of the inner Circle.Brock is obviously part of the inner Circle.Brock is obviously part of the inner Circle.Brock is obviously part of the inner Circle.Brock is obviously part of the inner Circle.Brock is obviously part of the inner Circle.Brock is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 08:50 AM   #69
dirk digler dirk digler is offline
Please squeeze
 
dirk digler's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Clinton, MO
Casino cash: $12170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iowanian View Post
Riddle me this.

Why do so many who support abortion argue so hard against executing murdering, criminal assholes with no value to society?

I don't believe in abortion personally, but if you want to do it, it's your conscience and your soul, not mine. I also strongly believe if you have a tax payer funded abortion, even one time it should come with a mandatory sterilization. If you have 2 under any circumstances...same thing.

I also think any man who fathers children with 2 or more women out of wedlock should get snipped.
Not me I am pro-death (pro-choice, pro-capital punishment, pro-assisted suicide).

I am curious why conservatives are so against assisted suicide for terminally ill people that want to die.
Posts: 49,074
dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 08:51 AM   #70
KILLER_CLOWN KILLER_CLOWN is offline
Be HEALED!!!!!!!
 
KILLER_CLOWN's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Fascist State
Casino cash: $9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Well, pro-life would be somebody who would prefer a ban on abortion written into law. There might be some disagreement over whether there would be medical exceptions, but there it is.

A conservative is outlined in (2a.) and (2b.) in the OP.
We already have laws against murder, just need to enforce it and stop tap dancing around killing innocents.
__________________
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father ... And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

"If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 24,651
KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 09:17 AM   #71
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
Bless FSU!
 
BucEyedPea's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: None of your business
Casino cash: $23806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock View Post
I suggest you do a little more reading. These kids were "orphans". They're the same kids who now number in the hundreds of thousands in our current foster systems.
Reading of what? History of child labor or this thread?

I was responding to your Post #58 which was in response to Demented Logic's post in this thread.
I still think it fits that context and your point about children working in factories.
__________________
“The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the legislature.” ~ James Madison, Father of the Constitution

“We do not believe in aggressive or preventive war. Such war is the weapon of dictators, not of free democratic countries like the United States.”~ Truman, Sept 1, 1950
Posts: 59,907
BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:14 PM.


This is a test for a client's site.
A new website that shows member-created construction site listings that need fill or have excess fill. Dirt Monkey @ https://DirtMonkey.net
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.