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Old 01-30-2013, 01:22 PM  
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Myths and Truths about Libertarianism

"Libertarianism is the fastest growing political creed in America today. Before judging and evaluating libertarianism, it is vitally important to find out precisely what that doctrine is, and, more particularly, what it is not. It is especially important to clear up a number of misconceptions about libertarianism that are held by most people, and particularly by conservatives. In this essay I shall enumerate and critically analyze the most common myths that are held about libertarianism. When these are cleared away, people will then be able to discuss libertarianism free of egregious myths and misconceptions, and to deal with it as it should be on its very own merits or demerits." ~ Murray N. Rothbard. a founder of modern libertarianism


Just for starters
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:51 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Yes I know. Making blacks sit at the back of a bus was wrong because it was done by the state.
Forcing businesses, who did not want to segregate it's lunch counters for instance, was forced by state law. But for those private businesses that did not want to integrate, they shouldn't be forced to. They'll lose business or not be as successful as those that do.
That's a good start, but that's not everything. We've had a society that was incredibly fractured along "race" and gender lines. Institutionalized bigotry. The decision was made to enforce "civil rights" issues to clear away the inherent inequalities that were built into our system of government, a government with intimate ties to large and small business. Along the way we've had to deal with mob mentality and oppression by the majority. That's why I support civil rights.
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:51 PM   #32
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Congratulations BucEyedPea, you have determined that not everyone pigeonholed into a nice, neat political label actually shares exactly the same ideology on every issue. Alert the media.
I never thought everyone was pigeonholed into a nice, neat political label was pure.
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:52 PM   #33
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That's a good start, but that's not everything. We've had a society that was incredibly fractured along "race" and gender lines. Institutionalized bigotry. The decision was made to enforce "civil rights" issues to clear away the inherent inequalities that were built into our system of government, a government with intimate ties to large and small business. Along the way we've had to deal with mob mentality and oppression by the majority. That's why I support civil rights.
So where do you stand on property rights then? Because such "rights" you claim here show a conflict of rights with that. Property rights are a fundamental right in the Constitution.
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:02 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
So where do you stand on property rights then? Because such "rights" you claim here show a conflict of rights with that. Property rights are a fundamental right in the Constitution.
It goes back to "necessary for a society to function."
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:58 PM   #35
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It goes back to "necessary for a society to function."
No, that's too vague.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:06 PM   #36
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It's amazing the Left has now co-opted the Libertarian position given that they love the welfare state and big govt (wasteful) programs. People seem to like freedom over gay marriage and abortion over freedom of their pocketbooks. Weird.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:17 PM   #37
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It's amazing the Left has now co-opted the Libertarian position given that they love the welfare state and big govt (wasteful) programs. People seem to like freedom over gay marriage and abortion over freedom of their pocketbooks. Weird.
I was just reading over at Lew's that the Left is attacking libertarianism—they're afraid of it.
Then, there's the left libertarians who are anarcho-socialists.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:19 PM   #38
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I was just reading over at Lew's that the Left is attacking libertarianism—they're afraid of it.
Then, there's the left libertarians who are anarcho-socialists.
The Left hates libertarianism but they have successfully marketed themselves as the "freedom" party on the social issues. Their voters say "The GOP wants government out of your wallet but in your bedroom!" and the public seems to buy that bogus logic.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:33 PM   #39
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For those thinking I'm such an absolutist

Big Government Libertarians
by Murray Rothbards in 1994
Still true today.
Not all of us however are familiar with an allied and far more oxymoronic development: the acceleration and takeover in the last few years by Big Government Libertarians, who now almost exclusively dominate the libertarian movement. The weird thing about Big Government Libertarianism, of course, is that it clearly violates the very nature and point of libertarianism:
devotion to the ideal of either no government at all or government that is minuscule and strictly confined to defense of person and property: to what the ex-libertarian philosopher Robert Nozick called "ultra-minimal" government, or what the great paleolibertarian writer H.L. Mencken called "government that barely escapes being no government at all."
How extensive has been this development, and how in the world could such a thing happen?
Murray goes to to break this development down....starting with the institutions the movement created:
Big Government Libertarianism now permeates and dominates what, in analogy with conservatives, may be called the Official Libertarian movement...

The fascinating point is that virtually all of these movement institutions, from the think-tanks to the magazines to the once purist Libertarian Party have, in the last few years, moved at remarkable speed to abandon any shred of their original principles: devotion to minimizing government or defending the rights of private property.

And indeed, the libertarian movement has always been almost willfully ignorant of any history or any aspect of foreign affairs. Arcane syllogisms of libertarian theory, science fiction, rock music, and the intricacies of computers, have been the sum and substance of their knowledge and their interest.

Part of this grandiose separatism, which I did not fully realize at the time, stemmed from an intense hatred of the right-wing, from libertarian anxiety never to be connected with or labeled as a conservative or a right-wing movement. And part of that hatred has come from a broader and even more intense hatred of Christianity, some of which was taken over from Ayn Rand.[ I have definitely observed this in some self-professed libertarians and even some Randites.]

To be specific, one important aspect of the recent shift toward statism and Big Government consists of a spill-over, of an infection, of libertarians' political views by their deep-seated egalitarianism. Scratch an egalitarian, and you will inevitably find a statist. How does the libertarians' burgeoning and pervasive egalitarianism square with their supposed belief in individualism, and for allowing every person to rise by his own merit unhobbled by government? The resolution of this problem is much the same as other, more common versions of Political Correctness.

Libertarians are fervently committed to the notion that, while each individual might not be "equal" to every other, that every conceivable group, ethnic contingent, race, gender, or, in some cases, species, are in fact and must be made "equal," that each one has "rights" that must not be subject to curtailment by any form of "discrimination."

And so, flying in the face of their former supposed devotion to the absolute rights of private property, the libertarian movement has embraced almost every phony and left-wing "right" that has been manufactured in recent decades.

Shortly before I left the libertarian movement and Party five years ago, a decision which I not only have never regretted but am almost continually joyous about, I told two well-known leaders of the movement that I thought it had become infected with and permeated by egalitarianism. What? they said. Impossible. There are no egalitarians in the movement. Further, I said that a good indication of this infection was a new-found admiration for the Reverend "Doctor" Martin Luther King. Absurd, they said. Well, interestingly enough, six months later, both of these gentlemen published articles hailing "Dr." King as a "great libertarian." To call this socialist, egalitarian, coercive integrationist, and vicious opponent of private-property rights, a someone who, to boot, was long under close Communist Party control, to call that person a "great libertarian," is only one clear signal of how far the movement has decayed.
Civil Rights or Property Rights
Throughout the Official Libertarian Movement, "civil rights" has been embraced without question, completely overriding the genuine rights of private property. In some cases, the embrace of a "right not to be discriminated against" has been explicit. In others, when libertarians want to square their new-found views, with their older principles and have no aversion to sophistry and even absurdity, they take the sneakier path blazed by the American Civil Liberties Union: that if there should be so much as a smidgen of government involved, whether it be use of the public streets or a bit of taxpayer funding, then the so-called "right" of "equal access" must override either private property or indeed any sort of good sense.
The increasing egalitarianism, which leads to increasing statism among those calling themselves libertarians actually stems from elites in the Beltway and is really fruit that has fallen far from the tree. It's a co-opted movement.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/ir/Ch16.html


With this I've got to go. I may peek in later.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:44 PM   #40
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The Left hates libertarianism but they have successfully marketed themselves as the "freedom" party on the social issues. Their voters say "The GOP wants government out of your wallet but in your bedroom!" and the public seems to buy that bogus logic.
Okay I can see that. The way I sort the wheat from the chaff, is by looking at the arguments they use for such issues. If they use egalitarianism, then they're really endorsing Cultural Marxism. This is not the same basis that a real libertarian would use, which would be minimalist govt for liberty. The cultural Marxist argument really is a trap.

I have an actual Marxist correct me once, claiming that Marx was really about a social revolution—not as much an economic one. Or shall I say a social end. The economics he espoused was a way to get there. I went and checked this out, because I didn't believe him, but he was right. Marx was all about "free love" doing away with the bourgeois aka the traditional family. Taboos must be broken down and replaced. No sub-groups like the family or smaller govts within a larger one, instead centralizing power. The family is the smallest governing unit of society. Break that up, more will become dependent on the state. So therefore, everyone is the same, one interchangeable part for another—egalitarianism. Libertarianism allows for many different communities and groups free from govt. Many would still have their own rules and standards. The ones that don't survive well, would be the ones who adopted dissolute practices.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:46 PM   #41
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No, that's too vague.
Not really. There is great discussion in Austin Chief's smoking ban thread on this very subject.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:49 PM   #42
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Not really. There is great discussion in Austin Chief's smoking ban thread on this very subject.
Well then, it's too vague for me when it's coming from a libertarian. I saw most of the smoking thread.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:54 PM   #43
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Well then, it's too vague for me when it's coming from a libertarian. I saw most of the smoking thread.
It's pretty simple. Your property rights don't outweigh the rights of others. Nor do they allow you to engage in practices that have a substantial negative effect on other individuals, or society in general.
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:08 PM   #44
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It's pretty simple. Your property rights don't outweigh the rights of others. Nor do they allow you to engage in practices that have a substantial negative effect on other individuals, or society in general.
"Substantial negative effect" = too vague! Also, there's no such thing as society. /BEP
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:16 PM   #45
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