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Old 02-12-2013, 07:16 PM  
Count Zarth Count Zarth is offline
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Obama wants to raise minimum wage to NINE DOLLARS AN HOUR



@RyanLizza: Obama will call for raising the federal minimum wage to $9.00/hour.
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:26 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Iowanian View Post
longonna,
if UAW had nothing to do with the harm to the auto industry, why did so many struggling companies list union salaries and particularly benefits and retirement packages as a very major factor in their struggle?
Because it makes it the unions fault and not their mismanagement. See the recent example of wonder bread/Hostess Twinkies. It was first reported by the mainstream media that it was the bad unions fault. Then the "real" facts started to come out on the mismanagement of the company by management. Bad decision after bad decision for years.

Unions have their good points and bad points. just like most things in life.

Since when do freedom loving, individual choice is an important part of our lives Republicans trying to stop individuals from working together to benefit each other? Why don't they have the freedom to do that?
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:48 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Mr. Flopnuts View Post
Yeah, I figured it would diminish after the initial sale. I'd have to work some numbers but it seems like a good salesman could make 60k a year at least with your scale. It would sure as **** beat car sales.
You'd be correct.
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:57 AM   #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
Because it makes it the unions fault and not their mismanagement. See the recent example of wonder bread/Hostess Twinkies. It was first reported by the mainstream media that it was the bad unions fault. Then the "real" facts started to come out on the mismanagement of the company by management. Bad decision after bad decision for years.

Unions have their good points and bad points. just like most things in life.

Since when do freedom loving, individual choice is an important part of our lives Republicans trying to stop individuals from working together to benefit each other? Why don't they have the freedom to do that?
a little overboard don't you think.
Individuals have the right to unionize and all the fun stuff that goes with it. By the way, you do know there are non-union organizations work well with each other.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:11 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
Because it makes it the unions fault and not their mismanagement. See the recent example of wonder bread/Hostess Twinkies. It was first reported by the mainstream media that it was the bad unions fault. Then the "real" facts started to come out on the mismanagement of the company by management. Bad decision after bad decision for years.

Unions have their good points and bad points. just like most things in life.

Since when do freedom loving, individual choice is an important part of our lives Republicans trying to stop individuals from working together to benefit each other? Why don't they have the freedom to do that?
You mean like acquiescing to union demands that had the top >$5K off the price of every vehicle GM sold going to pay for the lifestyle of a union member that no longer worked for the company? I'd call that mismanagement too but trying to claim unions had nothing to do with the collapse is ridiculous.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:14 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by King_Chief_Fan View Post
a little overboard don't you think.
Individuals have the right to unionize and all the fun stuff that goes with it. By the way, you do know there are non-union organizations work well with each other.
Do they contribute heavily to the democrat party? Priorities, you know.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:25 AM   #291
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Freedom loving Americans usually start stopping to support unions when they see a grown man sitting on a large piece of machinery, not pushing dirt either because a laborer isn't there to fuel up their equipment or move a small piece of debris from their path.

"I can't possibly do my job, I mean, there is no one here to perform a simple menial task for me and that isn't in my contract so I'll just sit here 3hrs until the labor gets here from his dentist appointment".

That's why I don't support unions more than the way they drive up the cost of every project they're involved with....and the way they bully people who don't want to be in their union...or others who are just trying to do a job that competes with them.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:57 AM   #292
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I remember Republicans in Congress bellyaching and bellyaching when Clinton raised the minimum wage in the early 90s, about how it was going to destroy the economy. What followed was about a decade plus of solid economic boom, minus the minor recession in the middle.

So spare me if I don't get all worked up about the economic Armageddon that's coming, from just keeping minimum-wage on pace with inflation.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:00 AM   #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FD View Post
The minimum wage is a sort of backdoor welfare. That's its appeal, the welfare comes in the form of a higher paycheck so it doesn't feel like welare, but it causes all these problems trying to accomplish this.
It's a lot better than welfare though, because it's not giving people money - and all the negative incentives and dependencies that go along with that.

The US has Third World level income inequality right now. If we can do a little thing to flatten out that curve that doesn't involve paying people not to work, I'm all for it.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:05 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins View Post
According to the logic posted in this thread, I have little doubt that most of the posters in this forum would have supported the motive of milk producers not to pasteurize milk to eliminate tuberculosis, as the cost was claimed to be too high.

This is just a rehash of standard supply-side economics dogma. "You're robbing Peter to pay Paul." You're not robbing someone if they earned that money. The common American worker is grievously underpaid for the amount of hours they put in and their productivity compared to past generations. Workers are more productive than ever, but make less when adjusted for inflation than any point in the last 40 years.

Look at how disproportionate executive compensation is to worker compensation.

The fact of the matter is that not only are entry-level workers underpaid, nearly all hourly wage-earners are; given the fact that the middle and working class spend a far higher percentage of their income than the upper class, such a bump in pay will have a stimulative effect on the economy overall, leading to more demand, and thus, more jobs, as these individuals have more discretionary income.

Three final questions: what exactly is a livable wage, and what jobs are worthy enough to command such a salary? Which ones aren't?
You make way too much sense for this forum.

Sadly, no one ever wants to argue matters of degrees or shades of grey like this. That would involve being like an actual economist. Black-and-white emotional arguments are a lot more fun.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:10 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
You are partially right. I would rather worker negotiate for better wages. The best way for a worker to increase their pay is through a union.

How it should work: I am selling myself to a employer, I am the seller. I get to set the price for my time and skills (that doesn't happen now. Go and tell Walmart what pay you will accept and watch how they laugh at you). If I feel my voice is too little for a international company to be bothered by, I can use my first amendment right to assemble with my other workers to use our first amendment right of free speech to discuss and vote on a contract that will represent our(the workers) best interest. If my life style expenses cannot be paid by a current wage, why wouldn't I raise the price I sell my time and skill(wage)?

How it works now: You apply. They tell you what you will make. You either take it or leave it.

Which is fine if you, if you aren't a low skilled uneducated worker. But that worker will always be low skilled and low educated if that worker never receives a pay that can provide the worker with means to better themselves. Minimum wage doesn't pay enough to go to a Community school if you can't even feed yourself on it.

The middle class needs more money. Pay needs to go up. We fix the problem of pay and we spend less on Welfare, demand goes up, tax revenue goes up, jobs increase.

Source. Currydemocrat.org "American Pie:Wealth Income Inequality in America

"Income for the top 20 percent has increased since the 1970s while income for the bottom 80 percent declined. In the 1970s the top 1 percent received 8 percent of total income while today they receive 18 percent. During the same period income for the bottom 20 percent had decreased 30 percent.

In the 1970s the top 0.1 percent of Americans received 2 percent of total income. Today they get 8 percent.

In 1980 the average CEO made 50 time more money than the average worker while today the average CEO makes almost 300 time more than the average worker."
This is horseshit. If you go to a job and tell them what you want and they say kick rocks, then do it. Go find A different job with someone that is willing to pay. Don't go get the union to negotiate with the mean old boss for you.

Unions used up their good when working conditions improved. Labor rates should always be determined by the market.

And the whole, pay needs to go up? The employee needs to have a better return for business. I guarantee you go make somebody money and they'll share. If you're just another jackass that texts and is on facebook all day, they won't.

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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Spoken like someone who has no idea of a union does or why. History has shown that in American, the best times of a growing middle class were at the same time as growing union membership.
Would you rather the government force pay higher or the workers to do it themselves?

Everybody has a organization that looks out for their self interests. Unions, Political parties, SuperPacs, Government. There are Guilds, and VFW's, Director Boards. The rich have their rich groups.

I have the first amendment right to a Union, why wouldn't I take advantage of what will increase of lifestyle. Everyone else in America finds every way to just that.

Congratulations on letting Corporate America convince you that your lone voice can make a difference in a multi national company. I am sure it feels great to work against your own self interest.

Source. americanprogressaction.org: As Unions Weaken So does the middle class:

"The states with the lowest percentage of workers in unions—North Carolina, Georgia, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, Oklahoma, and Texas—all have relatively weak middle classes. In each of these states, the share of income going to the middle class (the middle 60 percent of the population by income) is below the national average, according to Census Bureau figures.

Mapping the Census data that has been released this fall to previous years also shows that over time the strength of the middle class and the strength of the union movement have tracked closely together. In 1968, the share of income going to the nation’s middle class was 53.2 percent, when 28 percent of all workers were members of unions. Since then, union membership steadily declined alongside the share of income going to the middle class. By 2010, the middle class only received 46.5 percent of income as union membership dropped to less than 12 percent of workers."
You haven't studied history either. The most productive times for the COUNTRY in American History is when the railroads, steel, oil, and every damn factory on the block paid the employees they didn't kill a whole lot of not a damn thing.

The country became an industrial giant that was built on cheap, disposable labor. The country has figured out that, killing dudes isn't the way to go, and our industry has been headed south since. That's why everything is built in China and India because they'll work for a dollar a day. And we have to pay our guys $60 a day roughly? Yeah, a little barge freight doesn't seem so bad.

But go ahead, jack minimum wage on up to $9 an hour and wonder why we can't get any businesses to hire anybody.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:30 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
I remember Republicans in Congress bellyaching and bellyaching when Clinton raised the minimum wage in the early 90s, about how it was going to destroy the economy. What followed was about a decade plus of solid economic boom, minus the minor recession in the middle.

So spare me if I don't get all worked up about the economic Armageddon that's coming, from just keeping minimum-wage on pace with inflation.
Obviously you know nothing.
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Old 02-14-2013, 12:12 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Iowanian View Post
Freedom loving Americans usually start stopping to support unions when they see a grown man sitting on a large piece of machinery, not pushing dirt either because a laborer isn't there to fuel up their equipment or move a small piece of debris from their path.

"I can't possibly do my job, I mean, there is no one here to perform a simple menial task for me and that isn't in my contract so I'll just sit here 3hrs until the labor gets here from his dentist appointment".

That's why I don't support unions more than the way they drive up the cost of every project they're involved with....and the way they bully people who don't want to be in their union...or others who are just trying to do a job that competes with them.
This is a solid post. I wish everyone articulated their points in this fashion.
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:00 PM   #298
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First poll I've seen on the minimum wage. No idea if its scientific or not.
/end disclaimer

Shows good support for raising the minimum wage on both sides of the aisle.
http://nelp.3cdn.net/0be1c6315f2430afa6_arm6bq9wu.pdf
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:09 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
I remember Republicans in Congress bellyaching and bellyaching when Clinton raised the minimum wage in the early 90s, about how it was going to destroy the economy. What followed was about a decade plus of solid economic boom, minus the minor recession in the middle.
Correlation causation, exhibit A.
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:12 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
First poll I've seen on the minimum wage. No idea if its scientific or not.
/end disclaimer

Shows good support for raising the minimum wage on both sides of the aisle.
http://nelp.3cdn.net/0be1c6315f2430afa6_arm6bq9wu.pdf

Even 1/2 of MO Republicans voted to raise it in the 2006 state referendum (I think that was the year). Of course it's popular and of course it will always be popular since only 2% of Americans own a business and/or make payrolls. Since nearly everyone is a worker, everyone views this issue from the eyes of the worker.


I don't really care either way about this issue because it "self polices". If you raise the wage, some will benefit but others will lose hours/jobs. The free market will largely mete out the justice as to what it values here. If the market has a larger appetite for labor at a bit higher rate, workers win. (And vice versa). But Obama and his laws won't matter in the end and they never will.
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