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Old 03-03-2013, 07:55 PM  
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The Holocaust Just Got More Shocking

Thirteen years ago, researchers at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum began the grim task of documenting all the ghettos, slave labor sites, concentration camps and killing factories that the Nazis set up throughout Europe.

What they have found so far has shocked even scholars steeped in the history of the Holocaust.

The researchers have cataloged some 42,500 Nazi ghettos and camps throughout Europe, spanning German-controlled areas from France to Russia and Germany itself, during Hitler’s reign of brutality from 1933 to 1945.





http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/su...wanted=1&_r=4&
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Old 03-04-2013, 08:15 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by jspchief View Post
I agree that there was no reasonable recourse for those that objected. But the problem is that there wasn't much objection. Anti-semitism was deeply rooted in German culture.
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Old 03-04-2013, 08:20 AM   #47
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I've picked plenty of books, thanks very much. And if you weren't so busy being a prick you might be able to stop missing the point, which is supporting a government opposed to Jews is one thing, and having their ashes rain down on your lawn when the wind blows just right is an entirely different thing.
you are argueing with an ignoraramus who couldn't explain the difference between a Parliementary system of government and an Electoral college system, or the difference between a President and a Prime Minister.

He seems to think Hitler won some kind of election the same way Obama won an election.

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Old 03-04-2013, 08:25 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
The "entire nation was on board"?

Is the entire nation on board with everything Obama does just because we elected him? And he, at least, got a majority of the vote.

What was the percentage vote that the Nazi party got in the last freely held elections? That would be substantially LESS than 50%.

Yes, he ran on a racist platform. That is documented. But then you're somehow leaping to getting 100% of the vote on that platform, which is very far from true.
Not as in 100%, but anti-semitism was hardly a lunatic fringe in Germany at the time. And like I said, it may not have been support of outright genocide, but Germans harbored a lot of ill feelings towards Jews.

Getting back to the theme of the original post, I never really bought into the idea that these people didn't understand what was happening. I feel its possible that it grew into something more heinous than many anticipated, and certainly its not realistic to say they could have done anything about it at that point. But they knew bad things were happening. jmo
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Old 03-04-2013, 09:03 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by jspchief View Post
Not as in 100%, but anti-semitism was hardly a lunatic fringe in Germany at the time.

So we have two disconnects here. The first is that I (or anyone else that I've seen in this thread) have said that anti-semitism was limited to lunatic fringe. I would argue that latent anti-semitism was deeply rooted in German and many other European cultures and that this anti-semitism was a key to the rise of Hitler and the occurrence of the Holocaust.

THAT, however, does not mean that 100% of the German population was anti-semitic, nor that even many of those who WERE anti-semitic thought that GENOCIDE was appropriate. It's one thing to be racist, and yet another to have such burning racism that one would support genocide. There's a wide range of places to be on the sliding scale from "I'd prefer my daughter not date someone of that race" to "KILL THEM ALL".

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And like I said, it may not have been support of outright genocide, but Germans harbored a lot of ill feelings towards Jews.
Yeah, but you're making a huge, huge leap there. Hell, the US basically imprisoned all Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbor, but we didn't freaking kill them all...

Quote:
Getting back to the theme of the original post, I never really bought into the idea that these people didn't understand what was happening. I feel its possible that it grew into something more heinous than many anticipated, and certainly its not realistic to say they could have done anything about it at that point. But they knew bad things were happening. jmo
I think many did, or suspected, but without proof, and without confirmation and being powerless to change things anyway (or so they would have perceived, probably rightly so), they largely stuck their heads in the sand if it wasn't affecting them at all.

Basic human nature.


I categorically reject any suggestion that the German people, as a whole, were some kind of monstrous barbarians or uncivilized outliers among advanced civilizations as of the 1930s. It doesn't even make sense.
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Old 03-04-2013, 09:16 AM   #50
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I visited the Holocaust museum in Jersusalem. The part that got me, more than anything, was upstairs an entire library full of names. There were so many each tiny little typed out name, when added up, made an entire library, floor to ceiling books.

The biggest question I've always wondered, is how could the Germans let this happen? Then I learned the ONLY country that didn't help round up it's own Jews was Sweden. They found out when the roundup would take place, hired every boat there was, and all the Jews did a midnight ride to Norway. All survived.

Either Europe was ok with this, or all the balls in the world at the time resided in the USA.
I think you may have this flip-flopped, Sweeden was not occupied by the Germans but Norway was. If the Sweeds were sending their Jews to Norway they were not being very nice.
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Old 03-04-2013, 09:30 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
So we have two disconnects here. The first is that I (or anyone else that I've seen in this thread) have said that anti-semitism was limited to lunatic fringe. I would argue that latent anti-semitism was deeply rooted in German and many other European cultures and that this anti-semitism was a key to the rise of Hitler and the occurrence of the Holocaust.

THAT, however, does not mean that 100% of the German population was anti-semitic, nor that even many of those who WERE anti-semitic thought that GENOCIDE was appropriate. It's one thing to be racist, and yet another to have such burning racism that one would support genocide. There's a wide range of places to be on the sliding scale from "I'd prefer my daughter not date someone of that race" to "KILL THEM ALL".



Yeah, but you're making a huge, huge leap there. Hell, the US basically imprisoned all Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbor, but we didn't freaking kill them all...



I think many did, or suspected, but without proof, and without confirmation and being powerless to change things anyway (or so they would have perceived, probably rightly so), they largely stuck their heads in the sand if it wasn't affecting them at all.

Basic human nature.


I categorically reject any suggestion that the German people, as a whole, were some kind of monstrous barbarians or uncivilized outliers among advanced civilizations as of the 1930s. It doesn't even make sense.

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Old 03-04-2013, 09:51 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
They should have rose up against the Nazi's when they saw human ash on their lawns. And I don't buy they were helpless.

The SS would have fired on them but the regular army would not have if it was a popular uprising post Normandy. It could have been successful. The people knew the war was lost. Look at Russia 40 years later.

The russian communists controlled every part of their society. A narc on every block ready to turn in those who doubt. They won their freedom without firing a shot because the army wouldn't fire on them.
Seriously this is one of the silliest posts I have seen in quite awhile~
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Old 03-04-2013, 11:42 AM   #53
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Half the people talking shit about Germans couldn't find Prussia, Bavaria or Silesia on a map. Coulnd't tell you who the Kaiser was, Rosa Luxembourgh, Hindenberg. Couldn't explain what the Treaty of Versailles was.



Yeah I'd like to see what they would have done when the Gestapo kicked down there door.

BRC would have shit his pants he couldn't scribble names fast enough to give them all the information they needed to know about his neighbors, whether it was true or not.
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:23 PM   #54
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They had to know. Too much evidence. They had to have participated in supplying the camps.
If they knew, then everybody knew. You couldn't keep something like that a secret. So...

If everybody knew, then the Jews knew.

Which begs the question, why didn't they fight back?

They left there homes because they were told they were being moved to the east. Surely they knew they were being lied too, right? How could they not? They went into the ghettos with promises that they would be relocated to the east. They went to the camps with promises of hot showers and food.

And what point does the light go on in one's head that "this isn't going to end well"?

At what point do you fight back? You literally marched your whole family to their deaths, like sheep.
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Old 03-04-2013, 01:35 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Comrade Crapski View Post
Half the people talking shit about Germans couldn't find Prussia, Bavaria or Silesia on a map. Coulnd't tell you who the Kaiser was, Rosa Luxembourgh, Hindenberg. Couldn't explain what the Treaty of Versailles was.



Yeah I'd like to see what they would have done when the Gestapo kicked down there door.

BRC would have shit his pants he couldn't scribble names fast enough to give them all the information they needed to know about his neighbors, whether it was true or not.
When the Gestapo will investigate you just because your neighbor told them they think you are too anti-social and weird, yea, I don't suggest any blame towards the population of Germany as a whole for what happened. Here in America, we cannot relate to that.

/Prussia is where the Gestapo began.
//The treaty ended the WWI and Article 231 was the "war guilt clause"
///Luxemburg was a martyr for the Marxist parties
////Hindenburg was the president from 1925-1933, appointed Hitler, died soon after and Hitler took control of both offices
////People need to understand the Stab in the back legend too, The republic was almost cursed from the start.
/////I'll add in Karl Lueger, Mayor of Vienne (1905,06) who anti-Semitic views may have influenced Hitler and shows the history of Anti-antisemitism in Germany
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Old 03-04-2013, 01:37 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Comrade Crapski View Post
If they knew, then everybody knew. You couldn't keep something like that a secret. So...

If everybody knew, then the Jews knew.

Which begs the question, why didn't they fight back?

They left there homes because they were told they were being moved to the east. Surely they knew they were being lied too, right? How could they not? They went into the ghettos with promises that they would be relocated to the east. They went to the camps with promises of hot showers and food.

And what point does the light go on in one's head that "this isn't going to end well"?

At what point do you fight back? You literally marched your whole family to their deaths, like sheep.
If you are truly interested in these questions, might I suggest Brave New World Revisited By Huxley. I think he does a great job of deconstructing population control as used by the NAZI's.
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:31 PM   #57
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If you are truly interested in these questions, might I suggest Brave New World Revisited By Huxley. I think he does a great job of deconstructing population control as used by the NAZI's.
I have read Brave New World. It's a great book.

Thanks for adding to the discussion.

Here's another interesting episode:

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article....uleId=10005267
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:37 PM   #58
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I have read Brave New World. It's a great book.
Two different works.
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:40 PM   #59
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Two different works.
Right, I'll have to read "revisited".

Let's get this party started:

http://www.huxley.net/bnw-revisited/index.html
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:42 PM   #60
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I haven't yet. They've always been on my radar, though.
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