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Old 03-05-2013, 06:09 PM  
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Holder: Drone strikes against Americans on U.S. soil are legal

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“It is possible, I suppose, to imagine an extraordinary circumstance in which it would be necessary and appropriate under the Constitution and applicable laws of the United States for the President to authorize the military to use lethal force within the territory of the United States,” Holder replied in a letter yesterday to Paul’s question about whether Obama “has the power to authorize lethal force, such as a drone strike, against a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil, and without trial.”

[Rand] Paul condemned the idea. “The U.S. Attorney General’s refusal to rule out the possibility of drone strikes on American citizens and on American soil is more than frightening – it is an affront the Constitutional due process rights of all Americans,” he said in a statement.
I like the response by Clarity2016 to this:
"I have a feeling a large majority of Americans would support a Constitutional Amendment outlawing the use of drone strikes on American soil against our citizenry. Why don't we just pass that so that there isn't any ambiguity for Mr. Holder?"

Sounds like a good idea.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:15 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Well, I need to clarify that...I am opposed to use of the military for police work. Just not for other things. My overriding concern is due process because we have to rely on the govt being the judge, jury and executioner here. Also, until 9/11, terrorism by our own government was treated as a crime with a long history of treating it that way.
Dont worry, they're supposedly going to have some council composed of God knows who, who are going to make sure its all okey-dokey.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:16 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Well, I need to clarify that...I am opposed to use of the military for police work. Just not for other things. My overriding concern is due process because we have to rely on the govt being the judge, jury and executioner here. Also, until 9/11, terrorism by our own government was treated as a crime with a long history of treating it that way.
If terrorists hijack an airliner and refuse to land in a non populated area, we don't have time for "due process". With out recent history we can caculate with a high degree of certainty that they are not going to just kill the Americans on board but kill more Americans on the ground. In this case, the American people will applaud the President being judge, jury and executioner.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:22 PM   #18
Easy 6 Easy 6 is offline
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If terrorists hijack an airliner and refuse to land in a non populated area, we don't have time for "due process". With out recent history we can caculate with a high degree of certainty that they are not going to just kill the Americans on board but kill more Americans on the ground. In this case, the American people will applaud the President being judge, jury and executioner.
But where does the president getting to be judge, jury and executioner stop? In what situation is it not going to be ok?

And honestly, the hijack scenario just doesnt seem as plausible as it used to... this is just another worrisome move imo.

Once a precedent has been set, it could encompass any possible situation.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:33 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
If terrorists hijack an airliner and refuse to land in a non populated area, we don't have time for "due process". With out recent history we can calculate with a high degree of certainty that they are not going to just kill the Americans on board but kill more Americans on the ground. In this case, the American people will applaud the President being judge, jury and executioner.
Don't we already have an air defense designed to do that without using drones?
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:38 PM   #20
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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It is possible, I suppose, to imagine an extraordinary circumstance in which it would be necessary and appropriate under the Constitution and applicable laws of the United States for the President to authorize the military to use lethal force within the territory of the United States,” Holder replied in a letter yesterday to Paul’s question about whether Obama “has the power to authorize lethal force, such as a drone strike, against a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil, and without trial.”

Is this really so controversial? Seems like it would be a bit ridiculous to say that there would never, ever, ever be an appropriate situation.

Drones in general have caused a ridiculous amount of hysteria. It's as if flying machines with surveillance and/or weapons capabilities didn't exist a year ago.
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Did planes hit the 2 WTC towers? Yes. Ah but were they the airliners we were told they were? Evidence and physics seems to say NO!

What about the Pentagon?? Again it appears it would...defy physics.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:44 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
It is possible, I suppose, to imagine an extraordinary circumstance in which it would be necessary and appropriate under the Constitution and applicable laws of the United States for the President to authorize the military to use lethal force within the territory of the United States,” Holder replied in a letter yesterday to Paul’s question about whether Obama “has the power to authorize lethal force, such as a drone strike, against a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil, and without trial.”

Is this really so controversial? Seems like it would be a bit ridiculous to say that there would never, ever, ever be an appropriate situation.

Drones in general have caused a ridiculous amount of hysteria. It's as if flying machines with surveillance and/or weapons capabilities didn't exist a year ago.
It's the impression of a perceived continual decline in individual rights starting with the Bush administration after 9/11 and following into the current Obama administration.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:49 PM   #22
BigRedChief BigRedChief is offline
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Originally Posted by scott free View Post
But where does the president getting to be judge, jury and executioner stop? In what situation is it not going to be ok?

And honestly, the hijack scenario just doesnt seem as plausible as it used to... this is just another worrisome move imo.

Once a precedent has been set, it could encompass any possible situation.
I agree that's is a damn slippery slope. But, there will be future events where due process is just not an option. I would not be in favor of any "secret" killings of Americans. The President will be accountable for his actions.

Don't plot to kill Americans for and you will be fine.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:57 PM   #23
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This is nothing new.

If you are getting ready to kill a bunch of Americans and they kill you before you kill innocent Americans. Thats a good outcome.

Both George W. and Obama have publicly stated they would authorize the military shooting down a civilian airliner filled with Americans if the plane is hijacked and heading towards a population zone.

And if I was on that hijacked plane, I'd want them to shoot it down also. We are probably dead already. Why risk the terrorists using us all as a missile to take out more on the ground?
This is your tax dollars at work ladies and gentlemen. This is what you pay for in your government employees.

Dem terrorists gonna getcha! You should have been Nazi BIg Red Quuef.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:02 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
It's the impression of a perceived continual decline in individual rights starting with the Bush administration after 9/11 and following into the current Obama administration.
There's no accounting for perceptions, I suppose.
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Did planes hit the 2 WTC towers? Yes. Ah but were they the airliners we were told they were? Evidence and physics seems to say NO!

What about the Pentagon?? Again it appears it would...defy physics.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:03 PM   #25
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There's no accounting for perceptions, I suppose.
It's not exactly an unwarranted perception.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:06 PM   #26
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Only problem is there's really not a lot of terrorism in America. Terrorism is being used as scare tactics. Then the other thing to consider, is who DHS is labeling as terrorists. Napolitano consider them to be members of the Tea Party, Patriot movement, Constitutionalists and Paul supporters. This viewpoint is NO different than calling insurgents trying to get rid of an occupier a terrorist. I mean this is what our first revolutionaries were.

Between this and the gun issue...we are treading in dangerous territory.
don't forget single-issue voters, pot smokers, low level drug dealers, raw food producers, and eco terrorists (members of ALF, ELF, PETA and Greenpeace)
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:07 PM   #27
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:12 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
It's not exactly an unwarranted perception.
In the area of drone attacks on citizens, I think it is. Shooting people from the sky has been around for a long time.
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Did planes hit the 2 WTC towers? Yes. Ah but were they the airliners we were told they were? Evidence and physics seems to say NO!

What about the Pentagon?? Again it appears it would...defy physics.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:13 PM   #29
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:14 PM   #30
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In the area of drone attacks on citizens, I think it is. Shooting people from the sky has been around for a long time.
are you looking forward to living in a warzone. good for you.
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