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Old 03-05-2013, 06:09 PM  
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Holder: Drone strikes against Americans on U.S. soil are legal

Whoa!

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“It is possible, I suppose, to imagine an extraordinary circumstance in which it would be necessary and appropriate under the Constitution and applicable laws of the United States for the President to authorize the military to use lethal force within the territory of the United States,” Holder replied in a letter yesterday to Paul’s question about whether Obama “has the power to authorize lethal force, such as a drone strike, against a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil, and without trial.”

[Rand] Paul condemned the idea. “The U.S. Attorney General’s refusal to rule out the possibility of drone strikes on American citizens and on American soil is more than frightening – it is an affront the Constitutional due process rights of all Americans,” he said in a statement.
I like the response by Clarity2016 to this:
"I have a feeling a large majority of Americans would support a Constitutional Amendment outlawing the use of drone strikes on American soil against our citizenry. Why don't we just pass that so that there isn't any ambiguity for Mr. Holder?"

Sounds like a good idea.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:15 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Buzz_TinBalls View Post
that's okay -- we have shotguns. oh wait.
For what? Did someone take your shotgun?
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:15 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
In the area of drone attacks on citizens, I think it is. Shooting people from the sky has been around for a long time.
Yeah it has:

5 ways Obama is just like George W. Bush

1. Drones

The image of the gray, pilotless aircraft flying through the sky to eventually rain hellfire down will be indelibly tied to Obama. His administration has made drone strikes in countries like Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan the weapon of choice when it comes to dealing with suspected militants. You have to look at the numbers of drone strikes under the Bush and Obama administrations to truly appreciate how Obama has taken this Bush tool and increased its use exponentially.

The first drone strike in U.S. history occurred in 2002, when a CIA-operated drone fired on three men in Afghanistan. The drone strikes have since migrated over to battlefields away from U.S.-declared wars. In Pakistan, the Bush administration carried out a total of 52 strikes, according to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, which closely tracks drone strikes. That led to the deaths of an estimated 438 people, including 182 civilians and 112 children. But the Obama administration has ordered at least 300 drone strikes in Pakistan—and Obama’s second term has yet to begun. Those strikes have killed about 2,152 people, including 290 civilians, of whom 64 were children.

The drone strikes also have a devastating impact beyond the deaths reported. As a New York University/Stanford University study on drone strikes stated, the constant buzzing of drones in the sky “terrorizes men, women, and children, giving rise to anxiety and psychological trauma among civilian communities. Those living under drones have to face the constant worry that a deadly strike may be fired at any moment, and the knowledge that they are powerless to protect themselves.”

Instead of looking forward to how this permanent drone war might end, the Obama administration has decided to institutionalize the process. In October 2012, the Washington Post revealed that the administration had undertaken a two-year long strategy to institutionalize what has become known as the “kill list,” or the list of suspected terrorists the Obama administration unilaterally decides to kill by drone strikes. The administration calls it the “disposition matrix,” which refers to the different plans the administration has to “dispose” of suspected militants. The Post described the “matrix” as part of “the highly classified practice of targeted killing, transforming ad-hoc elements into a counterterrorism infrastructure capable of sustaining a seemingly permanent war.”

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/09/5_wa...ushs_policies/
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:16 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Buzz_TinBalls View Post
are you looking forward to living in a warzone. good for you.
No. Not sure why you would ask that. Has the capability to shoot people from the sky been around for a long time or not?
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:17 PM   #34
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I thought the first step was whether to even allow them to be used in our air space. We skip that?
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:18 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
For what? Did someone take your shotgun?
not yet. can i come over and cut your balls since you don't use them. thx
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:19 PM   #36
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is online now
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
Yeah it has:

5 ways Obama is just like George W. Bush

1. Drones

The image of the gray, pilotless aircraft flying through the sky to eventually rain hellfire down will be indelibly tied to Obama. His administration has made drone strikes in countries like Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan the weapon of choice when it comes to dealing with suspected militants. You have to look at the numbers of drone strikes under the Bush and Obama administrations to truly appreciate how Obama has taken this Bush tool and increased its use exponentially.

The first drone strike in U.S. history occurred in 2002, when a CIA-operated drone fired on three men in Afghanistan. The drone strikes have since migrated over to battlefields away from U.S.-declared wars. In Pakistan, the Bush administration carried out a total of 52 strikes, according to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, which closely tracks drone strikes. That led to the deaths of an estimated 438 people, including 182 civilians and 112 children. But the Obama administration has ordered at least 300 drone strikes in Pakistan—and Obama’s second term has yet to begun. Those strikes have killed about 2,152 people, including 290 civilians, of whom 64 were children.

The drone strikes also have a devastating impact beyond the deaths reported. As a New York University/Stanford University study on drone strikes stated, the constant buzzing of drones in the sky “terrorizes men, women, and children, giving rise to anxiety and psychological trauma among civilian communities. Those living under drones have to face the constant worry that a deadly strike may be fired at any moment, and the knowledge that they are powerless to protect themselves.”

Instead of looking forward to how this permanent drone war might end, the Obama administration has decided to institutionalize the process. In October 2012, the Washington Post revealed that the administration had undertaken a two-year long strategy to institutionalize what has become known as the “kill list,” or the list of suspected terrorists the Obama administration unilaterally decides to kill by drone strikes. The administration calls it the “disposition matrix,” which refers to the different plans the administration has to “dispose” of suspected militants. The Post described the “matrix” as part of “the highly classified practice of targeted killing, transforming ad-hoc elements into a counterterrorism infrastructure capable of sustaining a seemingly permanent war.”

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/09/5_wa...ushs_policies/
It has what?
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:20 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
It has what?
In response to your post.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:23 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Buzz_TinBalls View Post
not yet. can i come over and cut your balls since you don't use them. thx
You're not using your brain, but I really am not interested in it.

Go run and hide--they're coming for your shotgun!
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:28 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
In response to your post.
Not seeing how people's right to not being killed by a flying machine has really changed recently.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:59 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
You're not using your brain, but I really am not interested in it.

Go run and hide--they're coming for your shotgun!
Unless you live in Colorado
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:10 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
You're not using your brain, but I really am not interested in it.

Go run and hide--they're coming for your shotgun!
I am not impressed with your anti patriotism
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:57 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Not seeing how people's right to not being killed by a flying machine has really changed recently.
It's in the nature of the device used. When the 9/11 PA flight went down there was a lot of speculation about whether it was shot down by us or not. I think a valid argument can be made that if it was shot down that the act was reasonable given the situation. The official story is that heroic passengers took it down themselves to remove it as a weapon of terrorism, so you could say that us shooting it down is a decision that (at least the more heroic) passengers would have supported.

But, and this is a big but, that type of military craft is largely reactive and has a somewhat transparent use in regards to anti-terrorist missions. Drones are a bit different. They have a very small footprint, requiring a very small and mobile base of operations. They can fill more of a "Big Brother" role in recon and surveillance. They are designed to go after individuals and small groups. They can be left in patrol for extremely long periods of time. They have been used in other countries and, from what I have heard, inflict substantial collateral damage. It's apparent that this administration views that collateral damage as an acceptable price in the grand "War On Terror." Which means domestically that even if you aren't a target, they don't really give a shit if the drone kills you too.

In the case of the captured airliner that is heading for a population center this is a harsh decision, but one that is more likely to be made transparently, so it becomes open to critique. I don't like the idea of having a tiny automated air force-controlled by people who lie to us-constantly patrolling our country.
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:26 PM   #43
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Does the president have the authority to utilize military force within the borders of the United States against US citizens? I believe so, but I haven't studied on it. If so, what difference does it make if drones are used?
this is absolutely the question...


along with where is the line between military force & sending the swat team to at least pretend to try and arrest
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:30 AM   #44
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:30 AM   #45
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I thought the first step was whether to even allow them to be used in our air space. We skip that?
Apparently.

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