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Old 03-05-2013, 05:09 PM  
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Holder: Drone strikes against Americans on U.S. soil are legal

Whoa!

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“It is possible, I suppose, to imagine an extraordinary circumstance in which it would be necessary and appropriate under the Constitution and applicable laws of the United States for the President to authorize the military to use lethal force within the territory of the United States,” Holder replied in a letter yesterday to Paul’s question about whether Obama “has the power to authorize lethal force, such as a drone strike, against a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil, and without trial.”

[Rand] Paul condemned the idea. “The U.S. Attorney General’s refusal to rule out the possibility of drone strikes on American citizens and on American soil is more than frightening – it is an affront the Constitutional due process rights of all Americans,” he said in a statement.
I like the response by Clarity2016 to this:
"I have a feeling a large majority of Americans would support a Constitutional Amendment outlawing the use of drone strikes on American soil against our citizenry. Why don't we just pass that so that there isn't any ambiguity for Mr. Holder?"

Sounds like a good idea.
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:36 AM   #46
'Hamas' Jenkins 'Hamas' Jenkins is offline
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Explanation of quote: A psychotic virologist decides to go 12 Monkeys in a major American airport. He's on his way there. Gov't finds out about it. I guess they could give him a stern talking to, or they could just, in the words of R. Lee Ermey, "Find him, and kill him, and get rid of the sonofabitch."

We'll ignore the context of the response and focus only on the conclusions we want to draw in order to soothe our political preconceptions.

DC, don't ever change.
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:42 AM   #47
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I simply like that the President's power to murder american civilians without due process is now getting some actual press. It can't be talked about enough.

The people need to demand action.
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:45 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post
I simply like that the President's power to murder american civilians without due process is now getting some actual press. It can't be talked about enough.

The people need to demand action.
Due process doesn't mean what you think it means.
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:47 AM   #49
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:53 AM   #50
'Hamas' Jenkins 'Hamas' Jenkins is offline
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And just so we don't get things twisted, Holder is a gutless, ****ing stooge, but that doesn't mean what he said is incorrect or blaspehmous.
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:55 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
this is absolutely the question...


along with where is the line between military force & sending the swat team to at least pretend to try and arrest
Also relevant to the conversation is the type of weapon used. Drones, to my limited knowledge, seem to be typically armed with Hellfire missiles which can cause considerable collateral damage where as the SWAT sniper can end a threat with a single shot.
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:00 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins View Post
Due process doesn't mean what you think it means.
Do explain both what I mean and how I don't understand it.
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:00 AM   #53
'Hamas' Jenkins 'Hamas' Jenkins is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post
Do explain both what I mean and how I don't understand it.
Your previous post.
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:07 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins View Post
Your previous post.
Hmmm....

I meant that americans citizens are not receiving due process in that scenario, not that the president himself wasn't using due process.

Apologies. My sentence structure is poor sometimes.
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:16 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post
Hmmm....

I meant that americans citizens are not receiving due process in that scenario, not that the president himself wasn't using due process.

Apologies. My sentence structure is poor sometimes.
Yes, if the President was hypothetically ordering the murder of regular civilians it would obviously be a violation of due process. If he did so against conspirators who hadn't yet done anything, I'd also agree, However, I think a really heinous thing is happening: people are conflating the rights of an American citizen sitting at home on ChiefsPLanet with the rights of someone who is, and this is where Holder's quote needs greater parsing, in the middle of an attack.

To crosspost a little bit: If an American citizen hijacks an airliner, the President would be negligent not to shoot it down. They are ordering the assassination of a citizen, but at that point the citizen has crossed a definitive line and really doesn't exist in the same legal space as us.

I understand that this is a line that should be guarded extremely closely, because a violation of it is what leads to secret police and death squads, but Holder's quote never intimated such a desire as a possibility; he only suggested that it would be a possibility to require such action in a hypothetical scenario. However unlikely, I do think that is a reasonable stance.

And yes, he's still an idiot.
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:50 AM   #56
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Apparently.

That's awesome!
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:02 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Well, I need to clarify that...I am opposed to use of the military for police work. Just not for other things. My overriding concern is due process because we have to rely on the govt being the judge, jury and executioner here. Also, until 9/11, terrorism by our own government was treated as a crime with a long history of treating it that way.
Here is a link to the letter written by the AG. Seems to me that you pretty much agree with him if you read the entire letter.

http://paul.senate.gov/files/documen...erResponse.pdf
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:30 AM   #58
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These drones?



http://www.businessinsider.com/the-f...lovejoy-2012-6

It's been several years since the rumors and sightings of insect sized micro drones started popping up around the world.

Vanessa Alarcon was a college student when she attended a 2007 anti-war protest in Washington, D.C. and heard someone shout, "Oh my God, look at those."

"I look up and I'm like, 'What the hell is that?'" she told The Washington Post. "They looked like dragonflies or little helicopters. But I mean, those are not insects," she continued.

A lawyer there at the time confirmed they looked like dragonflies, but that they "definitely weren't insects".

And he's probably right.

In 2006 Flight International reported that the CIA had been developing micro UAVs as far back as the 1970s and had a mock-up in its Langley headquarters since 2003.

While we can go on listing roachbots, swarming nano drones, and synchronized MIT robots — private trader and former software engineer Alan Lovejoy points out that the future of nano drones could become even more unsettling.

Lovejoy found this CGI mock up of a mosquito drone equipped with the 'ability' to take DNA samples or possible inject objects beneath the skin.

According to Lovejoy:

Such a device could be controlled from a great distance and is equipped with a camera, microphone. It could land on you and then use its needle to take a DNA sample with the pain of a mosquito bite. Or it could inject a micro RFID tracking device under your skin.

It could land on you and stay, so that you take it with you into your home. Or it could fly into a building through a window. There are well-funded research projects working on such devices with such capabilities.

He offers some good links though his Google+ page and Ms. Smith at Network World offers up even more.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-f...#ixzz2MsNO6wjM
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:36 AM   #59
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:37 AM   #60
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These drones?


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