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Old 03-11-2013, 09:38 AM  
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:37 PM   #61
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And this leads into why the state does have an interest in the education of its citizens. Parents still can have a large influence but by providing wide views the child is awarded more opportunity to choose their own way as opposed to a parents dictum only.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:38 PM   #62
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I'll probably get flamed for this, and it is what it is. I don't have a problem with a parent wanting to homeschool. Having said that, I see hundreds of children a month at my office, and by and large, the ones that are homeschooled are just a bit "odd". Usually they are sort of antisocial, and they just seem plain weird. Just my observation.
That's just a bias toward you own values, though. I mean this is just subjective opinion. I don't think the values currently in vogue in the schools is something to write home about either.

It's funny because I have received the opposite reaction about my daughter from college professors including when she was in cc classes during HS. They all thought she was more mature at age 16/17 than their 20/21 year olds.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:40 PM   #63
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Freedom does not mean that you get to impose a certain lifestyle on them. It means they are free to follow their own. The Amish belief is that they want to steer clear of too much worldliness because they believe it leads to corruption. So it suits their lifestyle.
But that is what Amish parents effectively do and that is okay. Hell I am sure you ok then with the raising of girls to be young brides.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:40 PM   #64
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And this leads into why the state does have an interest in the education of its citizens. Parents still can have a large influence but by providing wide views the child is awarded more opportunity to choose their own way as opposed to a parents dictum only.
You're just substituting the dictums of the state though. So it's the same thing. All children, until they reach a certain age are subject to some dictums. That's just the way it is. It doesn't mean they can't change their minds later with new information or experiences. Some reject it and then return. Some modify it. The Amish even allow their teens to go out into the real world for awhile to see on their own. So they don't force it beyond a certain age.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:42 PM   #65
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But that is what Amish parents effectively do and that is okay. Hell I am sure you ok then with the raising of girls to be young brides.
It has nothing to do with what I am ok with in terms of young brides. I am trying not to impose my values on them to ensure a certain outcome because it's what the majority think is good. This is the problem with Progressivism. It must be their outcomes and any other is odd or to be legislated away.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:42 PM   #66
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Not the dictum of a state. The diverse introductions of many means of knowledge.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:44 PM   #67
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Can we get back to Holder and the Obama administrations actions on this and what is a fundamental right?
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:44 PM   #68
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Not the dictum of a state. The diverse introductions of many means of knowledge.
Your imposing your way on others here. I thought this is what liberals thought was bad when conservatives do it.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:45 PM   #69
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The dictatorial can exist at any level family, clan, religion and government. But you don't recognize any of that except at the governmental level. That is just as restricted in your thoughts.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:47 PM   #70
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The dictatorial can exist at any level family, clan, religion and government. But you don't recognize any of that except at the governmental level. That is just as restricted in your thoughts.
It's not dictatorial for parents to control the education of their children tip. Whether they choose a govt option or an alternative. That's just your opinion.
I mean you even put yours in a Catholic school and aren't even a Catholic. If anything, there's variety among homeschoolers and many try to follow the natural interests of the child. They feel it facilitates more learning. It's hardly dictatorial...the govt system is more so with its standard curriculum. I know of a former corporate trainer that does it that way. She has a Masters in Education from Harvard. http://cityhomeschooling.blogspot.com/

Anyhow, I don't have all day. I am losing time.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:49 PM   #71
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Yes my kids went to public, Catholic, Amish and Home Schooled at different times. I am guilty of choosing all of the above and a wish for all children to have such opportunity.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:50 PM   #72
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That's just a bias toward you own values, though. I mean this is just subjective opinion. I don't think the values currently in vogue in the schools is something to write home about either.
Uh, no. Like I said, I don't have a problem with the idea of homescooling. I am simply making an observation that the children seem a bit off socially. It's not surprising either. My values? I didn't state my values, so how can you say I am biasing toward my values. My values, just to let you know, include raising children that are able to integrate into society in a manner that allows them to flourish and be accepted by others as well as maximize the enjoyment of life.

I don't homeschool my kids, so I'm not sure if homeschooling has any effect of the afore mentioned values of mine. I do know, however, that homeschooled kids seem antisocial and a bit out of touch with the much larger majority of kids.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:51 PM   #73
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Yes my kids went to public, Catholic, Amish and Home Schooled at different times. I am guilty of choosing all of the above and a wish for all children to have such opportunity.
Great!
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:57 PM   #74
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Uh, no. Like I said, I don't have a problem with the idea of homescooling. I am simply making an observation that the children seem a bit off socially. It's not surprising either.
I know what you said, sir. But observation is based on one's point of view and values. Sorry but it enters in for each of us. What you consider odd may not be to another is all I am saying.

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My values? I didn't state my values, so how can you say I am biasing toward my values.
It shows when you call someone "odd." For whatever reason, you are making a value judgement. It's okay. We all do it. I don't care for many of the values some govt ed kids have.

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My values, just to let you know, include raising children that are able to integrate into society in a manner that allows them to flourish and be accepted by others as well as maximize the enjoyment of life.
You're entitled to that, but so are others. I prefer individual integrity and not peer acceptance as the best value.

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I don't homeschool my kids, so I'm not sure if homeschooling has any effect of the afore mentioned values of mine. I do know, however, that homeschooled kids seem antisocial and a bit out of touch with the much larger majority of kids.
You mean peer pressure is your standard. Or conformity to what is considered the norm which imo is pretty bad. It's anti-socialization. Out of touch with the majority of kids? Much of that is bad in my book. Promiscuity at early ages, drugs, conformity of views, increasing entitlement mentality, worship of the state etc.

So you're against being different and prefer an avid craving for agreement. Those are hardly the types that bring about positive change. We need leaders—not lemmings.

I am not trying to flame you. I just profoundly disagree. It's anecdotal and based on few without saying why their odd compared to the govt school kids. There have been studies claiming there the socialization issues are not true and overstated.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:59 PM   #75
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Except that previous to Horace Mann and the Progressive Movement education in America began as an attack on Catholics as they educated their own without the state. It freaked the Protestants out.




Christopher Manion
You know the Austrian school gets their bias in economics from their moral agenda to remove the autocratic regimes and religions found in Europe from controlling people. But they equally thought that ignorance was a bane as well. Horace Mann's statement was an enlightened statement seeking to argue that the US experiment required an understanding of the uniqueness of questioning authority and offered an education that allowed that instead of institutionized papal teaching.
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