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Old 03-13-2013, 12:09 PM  
La literatura La literatura is offline
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:24 AM   #136
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Old 03-15-2013, 04:22 AM   #137
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Geez. I got nuthin'. Why do you even care? You spent a ton of energy being insulting in your post about an institution that obviously has no effect on your life. Chill out.
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Old 03-15-2013, 05:21 AM   #138
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:54 AM   #139
otherstar otherstar is offline
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Originally Posted by JohnnyV13 View Post
I very much know the church's position on this issue and I simply don't agree.

To me, it's rooted in the Church's belief that sex is inherently wrong---and can only be barely justified by procreation. This thought runs through much of Church theology, though they lie about it.
Can you be more intellectually dishonest? It might run through strains of Catholic thought, but not all of it. John Paul II had a carefully elucidated theology of the body that is quite positive and not rooted in the Augustinian/Jansenist thinking that spurs comments like yours

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In fact, I think one of the fundamental problems with the Church, and why they are losing members in Europe and the United States, is due to this perverse view of sex.

The core of the Church's sexual theology is set forth in Humane Vitae. The "point of departure" from which the rest of the encyclical logically follows is the presumption that God made sex for two purposes 1) closeness in marriage and 2) procreation. The Church then reasons that trying to segregate these two unified functions violates the will of God.
Sort of. The late John Paul II actually authored much of Humanae Vitae and most of the arguments are couched in philosophical terms and, yes, they hinge on natural law concepts. To say that they simply "violate the will of God" is an oversimplification that, again, borders on intellectual dishonesty. You are almost creating a straw man here.

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Now, there is no objective reason for this from a worldly point a view. This point is simply divine revelation, which in Humane Vitae, the church does not deign to give a reason for other than to assert their authority and capability to determine. This is the first clue about the nature of Humane Vitae. It is what we in the legal profession call a result oriented argument. In that, before even truly addressing the question, they have made up their minds and the resulting "reasoning" is nothing more than a justification for an already reached conclusion.
You have finished creating the straw man. This is a fallacious argument. The Church's teaching was well-established by the time Humanae Vitate (hereafter HV) was written. HV was simply an attempt to re-present old arguments in more contemporary terms. I doubt many would understand the arguments if they were made using the language of Scholastic Philosophy. I would, but would you? (I have an M.A. in Philosophy specializing in the thought of St. Thomas Aquinas)

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To understand how different this is, if we applied this reasoning to our legs we would say that "God made man's legs for ambulation and and moving our body up and down. If we instead use our legs to pick up a fork or we decide to walk on our hands, man has violated God's will and committed mortal sin."
Wrong. Yet another straw man. You either have a real axe to grind with the Church (which I have no problem with), or just don't really understand the concepts behind the arguments. I'm betting it's the former.

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Basically, with no other aspect of human life do we presume that any other use other than "God's specific intent" is inherently sinful, EVEN IF THAT USE CAUSES NO HARM OR RISK OF HARM TO OTHERS.

Thus, in Humanae Vitae, we see that masturbation is mortal sin, even though masturbation CANNOT CAUSE HARM TO ANYONE ELSE!!! The theological view is that you are willfully segregating God's intended purposes for sex into "pleasure only". This is like saying that the reason for your taste buds is 1) pleasure from eating food and 2) to lead us to eat foods that sustain the body. Therefore patient nutrition through the vein is immoral because we have negated the God-given purpose of the tongue.
This has already been discussed by InChiefsHell, and I think he nails it.

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Of course, the Church ignores its own doctrine of natural law, in which they hold that we can learn God's will through the "nature of things". Now, a number of studies have found that if a man does not ejaculate on a regular basis, he suffers a 30-50 percent increased risk of testicular cancer. Consequently, from the Church's point of view, if a single man follows their theology, God rewards him with a vastly increased chance of cancer. Somehow, the church fails to account for this.

Of course, most men can marry to avoid this risk. If one is homosexual, then they must completely abstain from sexual activity. Their reward for following God's will is to have their nuts eaten by cancer.
You've committed the "appeal to probability" fallacy in this argument. The Church does not fail to account for this, because it's not 100 percent true that this will happen (hence the fallacy).

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Somehow, this structure of the universe makes little sense to me. To me, natural law indicates the Church has this theological point completely wrong---much like the Pope who denied immunization during a plague in Rome because plague is a punishment from God and frustrating that purpose through immunization violated God's will (a common response by clergy of all stripes (protestant and catholic) to the invention of immunization).
Is this even relevant in the 21st Century? When has the Church last said anything negative about immunization (outside of being critical of immunizations that make use of material from aborted fetuses)?

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Typically, result-oriented arguments get made when the entity knows that the true reasons for the decision will be unpalatable to the listeners. Thus, they hide the real reasons with rationalizations. Frankly, to see the Church use such tactics is pathetic, when you consider their whole purpose is to reveal the truth of God to mankind.
Hmm...sounds just like the arguments you're making.

Last edited by otherstar; 03-15-2013 at 01:18 PM..
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:09 AM   #140
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:50 AM   #141
InChiefsHell InChiefsHell is online now
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First, then God shouldn't have made some of them so hot.

Second, why is finding them attractive demeaning? And now we're back to the first thing.
First point...I laughed. Good naturedly.

Second, we're not talking about finding them attractive being demeaning. Using them as a toy to satisfy your selfish desire for sexual gratification is demeaning. Surely you can see the difference. Or not.
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:16 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by InChiefsHell View Post
First point...I laughed. Good naturedly.

Second, we're not talking about finding them attractive being demeaning. Using them as a toy to satisfy your selfish desire for sexual gratification is demeaning. Surely you can see the difference. Or not.
Who is harmed? How are they harmed?
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:31 PM   #143
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:36 PM   #144
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Old 03-16-2013, 03:41 PM   #145
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Did this Pope molest any Argentinian boys?
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Old 03-16-2013, 03:45 PM   #146
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Did this Pope molest any Argentinian boys?
Nope, you're shutting him out in that regard so far in life...
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Old 03-16-2013, 05:18 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by InChiefsHell View Post
First point...I laughed. Good naturedly.

Second, we're not talking about finding them attractive being demeaning. Using them as a toy to satisfy your selfish desire for sexual gratification is demeaning. Surely you can see the difference. Or not.
That depends on the woman, and it depends on the moment.
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Old 03-16-2013, 07:21 PM   #148
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Are you super duper Catholic?
Get your Pope "Fathead" for your bedroom, rec room or confessional!
http://www.mlive.com/business/detroi...ing_giant.html
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Old 03-16-2013, 07:40 PM   #149
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Are you super duper Catholic?
Get your Pope "Fathead" for your bedroom, rec room or confessional!
http://www.mlive.com/business/detroi...ing_giant.html

I can't fap to this.
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Old 03-16-2013, 07:44 PM   #150
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I can't fap to this.
Oh, sorry...didn't know it was fappin' time.
Here ya go...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...?ir=Weird+News
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