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Old 03-13-2013, 12:09 PM  
La literatura La literatura is offline
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Old 03-14-2013, 11:59 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Cmd'r&Chief View Post
What the hell is this "we" bull shit? You're the one in a Catholic cult, don't bring the rest of us into your crazy, clown worshiping, beliefs.

Wtf does a pope do anyways? Is he like the general manager of catholicism?
We refers to Catholics. Feel free to not include yourself in the "we".

The Pope is like God of course.
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Old 03-14-2013, 12:01 PM   #122
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Yeah, I understand all that. I don't see why it is "especially complicated for Americans" as you said. Also don't see why you're "on board with it."
Complicated is a bad choice of words. Difficult would be more correct, given that this country really enjoys illicit sex.

As to why I'm on board with it...because I agree with it. What else is there to understand?
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:56 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by InChiefsHell View Post
Sigh. Most choose to ignore it because it's damned inconvenient.

Sound bite version:

Man and women are meant to be together physically inside of marriage. Fornication causes a ton of problems. Hence, birth control out of wedlock should not even be needed.

Marriage in the Catholic faith means being open to creation at all times, which is part of the Catholic wedding vows. Therefore birth control in wedlock should not be needed either. There is natural family planning for that.

Again, sound bite version.

I very much know the church's position on this issue and I simply don't agree.

To me, it's rooted in the Church's belief that sex is inherently wrong---and can only be barely justified by procreation. This thought runs through much of Church theology, though they lie about it.

In fact, I think one of the fundamental problems with the Church, and why they are losing members in Europe and the United States, is due to this perverse view of sex.

The core of the Church's sexual theology is set forth in Humane Vitae. The "point of departure" from which the rest of the encyclical logically follows is the presumption that God made sex for two purposes 1) closeness in marriage and 2) procreation. The Church then reasons that trying to segregate these two unified functions violates the will of God.

Now, there is no objective reason for this from a worldly point a view. This point is simply divine revelation, which in Humane Vitae, the church does not deign to give a reason for other than to assert their authority and capability to determine. This is the first clue about the nature of Humane Vitae. It is what we in the legal profession call a result oriented argument. In that, before even truly addressing the question, they have made up their minds and the resulting "reasoning" is nothing more than a justification for an already reached conclusion.

To understand how different this is, if we applied this reasoning to our legs we would say that "God made man's legs for ambulation and and moving our body up and down. If we instead use our legs to pick up a fork or we decide to walk on our hands, man has violated God's will and committed mortal sin."

Basically, with no other aspect of human life do we presume that any other use other than "God's specific intent" is inherently sinful, EVEN IF THAT USE CAUSES NO HARM OR RISK OF HARM TO OTHERS.

Thus, in Humanae Vitae, we see that masturbation is mortal sin, even though masturbation CANNOT CAUSE HARM TO ANYONE ELSE!!! The theological view is that you are willfully segregating God's intended purposes for sex into "pleasure only". This is like saying that the reason for your taste buds is 1) pleasure from eating food and 2) to lead us to eat foods that sustain the body. Therefore patient nutrition through the vein is immoral because we have negated the God-given purpose of the tongue.

Of course, the Church ignores its own doctrine of natural law, in which they hold that we can learn God's will through the "nature of things". Now, a number of studies have found that if a man does not ejaculate on a regular basis, he suffers a 30-50 percent increased risk of testicular cancer. Consequently, from the Church's point of view, if a single man follows their theology, God rewards him with a vastly increased chance of cancer. Somehow, the church fails to account for this.

Of course, most men can marry to avoid this risk. If one is homosexual, then they must completely abstain from sexual activity. Their reward for following God's will is to have their nuts eaten by cancer.

Somehow, this structure of the universe makes little sense to me. To me, natural law indicates the Church has this theological point completely wrong---much like the Pope who denied immunization during a plague in Rome because plague is a punishment from God and frustrating that purpose through immunization violated God's will (a common response by clergy of all stripes (protestant and catholic) to the invention of immunization).

Typically, result-oriented arguments get made when the entity knows that the true reasons for the decision will be unpalatable to the listeners. Thus, they hide the real reasons with rationalizations. Frankly, to see the Church use such tactics is pathetic, when you consider their whole purpose is to reveal the truth of God to mankind.
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:36 PM   #124
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Old 03-14-2013, 04:41 PM   #125
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A truly epic post.
That is a fantastic post, and truly from the initial read does challenge me. It's such a long post however, it will take me a few times to read through and make and attempt at rebuttal. I will answer what I can and admit the areas that I don't have answers for. Gotta chew on it for a while.

I will say this, I don't plan on changing your mind or even making you respect my point of view. I just feel that since you decided to put so much work into that post...it deserves a well thought out response.
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Old 03-14-2013, 05:39 PM   #126
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So the group of hysterical virgins have picked another clown to prop up as the vicar of Christ I hear he is a liberal so maybe he might quit preaching the evils of condoms and who knows maybe point out the stupidity of celibacy. Maybe he will lose the extravagant outfits that have no resemblance to the Jewish carpenter this whole thing started over~
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Old 03-14-2013, 06:24 PM   #127
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So the group of hysterical virgins have picked another clown to prop up as the vicar of Christ I hear he is a liberal so maybe he might quit preaching the evils of condoms and who knows maybe point out the stupidity of celibacy. Maybe he will lose the extravagant outfits that have no resemblance to the Jewish carpenter this whole thing started over~
You heard wrong (at least in so far as his predisposition toward contraception). You haven't been listening to the same news that led cosmo to errantly believe Dick Cheney wasn't an American hero have you?
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Old 03-14-2013, 07:42 PM   #128
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I very much know the church's position on this issue and I simply don't agree.

To me, it's rooted in the Church's belief that sex is inherently wrong---and can only be barely justified by procreation. This thought runs through much of Church theology, though they lie about it.
Heh. The first time I read that I admit it pissed me off. I donít know how you arrive at the conclusion that they LIE about it. Say they are severely misinformed, or donít have the answers is one thingÖbut accusing of lying requires proof, not opinion. As you state in your opening sentenceÖI simply donít agree.

Quote:
In fact, I think one of the fundamental problems with the Church, and why they are losing members in Europe and the United States, is due to this perverse view of sex.
Which is interesting. If the Church was just trying to make people like Her, one would think they would change this ďperverseĒ view of sex. SoÖthey must really believe itÖeven if you and many many Catholics donít. Truth is a bitch and it doesn't change, no matter how much we wish it would. If you believe something is true, could you possibly ignore that? Why expect the Church to do that then, just so they can keep members?

Europe is lost anyway. They are not producing offspring at a sustainable level. Their population is growing due to immigration. Studies show this as well.

Quote:
The core of the Church's sexual theology is set forth in Humane Vitae. The "point of departure" from which the rest of the encyclical logically follows is the presumption that God made sex for two purposes 1) closeness in marriage and 2) procreation. The Church then reasons that trying to segregate these two unified functions violates the will of God.

Now, there is no objective reason for this from a worldly point a view. This point is simply divine revelation, which in Humane Vitae, the church does not deign to give a reason for other than to assert their authority and capability to determine. This is the first clue about the nature of Humane Vitae. It is what we in the legal profession call a result oriented argument. In that, before even truly addressing the question, they have made up their minds and the resulting "reasoning" is nothing more than a justification for an already reached conclusion.
I have not read Humane Vitae, so I canít really speak to it. (Though I plan on it now, thanks for that.) But the presumption you reference is a presumption in your eyes. In the eyes of the Church, itís divine revelation. The Church is not about winning a popularity contest, it teaches what it truly believes to be divine truth. These doctrines and teachings have been exhaustively explored over centuries by the Church and the doctors of the Church. Itís not some novel concept that they just recently thought up.

Quote:
To understand how different this is, if we applied this reasoning to our legs we would say that "God made man's legs for ambulation and and moving our body up and down. If we instead use our legs to pick up a fork or we decide to walk on our hands, man has violated God's will and committed mortal sin."

Basically, with no other aspect of human life do we presume that any other use other than "God's specific intent" is inherently sinful, EVEN IF THAT USE CAUSES NO HARM OR RISK OF HARM TO OTHERS.

Thus, in Humanae Vitae, we see that masturbation is mortal sin, even though masturbation CANNOT CAUSE HARM TO ANYONE ELSE!!! The theological view is that you are willfully segregating God's intended purposes for sex into "pleasure only". This is like saying that the reason for your taste buds is 1) pleasure from eating food and 2) to lead us to eat foods that sustain the body. Therefore patient nutrition through the vein is immoral because we have negated the God-given purpose of the tongue.
The Church teaches that when we sin, we sin against God first and foremost. I would disagree that what is believed to be sin is harmless. You can say that you donít believe itís a sin, but if the Church does, they are going to teach that. Masturbation for instance. Thereís a lot more to it than the simple physical act. The fact that it could lead to other deeper sin is also a factor. When you masturbate, you are using a mental image of a woman, a creation of God, as a toy. And you are demeaning that creation. It can also mean use of pornography, which demeans women and causes them great harm. Loss of self esteem, drug use, etcetera are POSSIBLE. If porn was just alrighty, then men would have no problem with their daughters doing it. I donít know any right thinking man that wants his daughter to do porn. Yet every woman in the porn industry is somebodyís daughter. Does it make it OK to exploit a woman because sheís not your daughter? It could also lead to infidelity. Your wife isnít enough, masturbation isnít enough, she canít match your fantasies, so you go looking elsewhere.

These are all simply POSSIBILITIES that can lead to deeper problems and those problems certainly CAN be harmful to others. I know you think Iím nuts. But it is what it is. I canít write a huge post but this goes even deeper and deeper.

Quote:
Of course, the Church ignores its own doctrine of natural law, in which they hold that we can learn God's will through the "nature of things". Now, a number of studies have found that if a man does not ejaculate on a regular basis, he suffers a 30-50 percent increased risk of testicular cancer. Consequently, from the Church's point of view, if a single man follows their theology, God rewards him with a vastly increased chance of cancer. Somehow, the church fails to account for this.

Of course, most men can marry to avoid this risk. If one is homosexual, then they must completely abstain from sexual activity. Their reward for following God's will is to have their nuts eaten by cancer.
Had to look that one up. From the BBC:

ďMasturbation Ďcuts cancer riskí
Men could reduce their risk of developing prostate cancer through regular masturbation, researchers suggest.They say cancer-causing chemicals could build up in the prostate if men do not ejaculate regularly.
And they say sexual intercourse may not have the same protective effect because of the possibility of contracting a sexually transmitted infection, which could increase menís cancer risk.
Australian researchers questioned over 1,000 men who had developed prostate cancer and 1,250 who had not about their sexual habitsĒ

I guess itís a suggestion, a speculation, not a fact. Call it a lame argument, but I just donít believe there is proof that you gotta jerk off to avoid testicular cancer. If you believe the Church can twist things to match their point of view, can you not see that the secular world may be guilty of the same thing?
Quote:
Somehow, this structure of the universe makes little sense to me. To me, natural law indicates the Church has this theological point completely wrong---much like the Pope who denied immunization during a plague in Rome because plague is a punishment from God and frustrating that purpose through immunization violated God's will (a common response by clergy of all stripes (protestant and catholic) to the invention of immunization).

Typically, result-oriented arguments get made when the entity knows that the true reasons for the decision will be unpalatable to the listeners. Thus, they hide the real reasons with rationalizations. Frankly, to see the Church use such tactics is pathetic, when you consider their whole purpose is to reveal the truth of God to mankind.
Not aware of the Pope you are referencing.

Look, I appreciate your well thought out argument, but all it is at the end of the day is your opinion. Iím sorry Iím not capable of putting more energy into this response. Iím not a Canon Lawyer. Iíd suggest you discuss this with someone better equipped to respond. I have no problem admitting my shortcomings in this department. At the end of the day, based on my life experiences and beliefs, I defer to the Church. Call it a weakness, but againÖit is what it is.

I do appreciate your post. One of the more thoughtful ones Iíve seen here on the Planet.

Pax Vobiscum.
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Old 03-14-2013, 07:43 PM   #129
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So the group of hysterical virgins have picked another clown to prop up as the vicar of Christ I hear he is a liberal so maybe he might quit preaching the evils of condoms and who knows maybe point out the stupidity of celibacy. Maybe he will lose the extravagant outfits that have no resemblance to the Jewish carpenter this whole thing started over~
Geez. I got nuthin'. Why do you even care? You spent a ton of energy being insulting in your post about an institution that obviously has no effect on your life. Chill out.
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Old 03-14-2013, 07:51 PM   #130
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When you masturbate, you are using a mental image of a woman, a creation of God, as a toy. And you are demeaning that creation.
First, then God shouldn't have made some of them so hot.

Second, why is finding them attractive demeaning? And now we're back to the first thing.
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Old 03-14-2013, 07:57 PM   #131
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The Church teaches that when we sin, we sin against God first and foremost. I would disagree that what is believed to be sin is harmless. You can say that you donít believe itís a sin, but if the Church does, they are going to teach that. Masturbation for instance. Thereís a lot more to it than the simple physical act. The fact that it could lead to other deeper sin is also a factor. When you masturbate, you are using a mental image of a woman, a creation of God, as a toy. And you are demeaning that creation. It can also mean use of pornography, which demeans women and causes them great harm. Loss of self esteem, drug use, etcetera are POSSIBLE. If porn was just alrighty, then men would have no problem with their daughters doing it. I donít know any right thinking man that wants his daughter to do porn. Yet every woman in the porn industry is somebodyís daughter. Does it make it OK to exploit a woman because sheís not your daughter? It could also lead to infidelity. Your wife isnít enough, masturbation isnít enough, she canít match your fantasies, so you go looking elsewhere.
LOL. Where does this antiquated bullshit come from? Show me the guy who says he quit jacking off and I'll show you a ****ing liar.
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:02 PM   #132
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[quote]When you masturbate, you are using a mental image of a woman, a creation of God, as a toy. And you are demeaning that creation.[quote]



I remember the grade school religion classes teaching us kids that same fairy tale. It was just uncomfortably funny then. It's just laughable now.
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:05 PM   #133
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Just stopping by to laugh at the whole masturbation thing.
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:11 PM   #134
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Just stopping by to laugh at the whole masturbation thing.
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:37 PM   #135
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Quit listening to all that crappy new music and check out HEADSTRONG!
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