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Old 03-15-2013, 09:28 PM  
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And...Then Rand Paul Did Something Foolish

Rand Paul Introduces ‘Life at Conception Act’
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...onception-act/
Kentucky Senator Rand Paul on Thursday introduced the “Life At Conception Act,” saying that the “right to life is guaranteed to all Americans.”

“I plan to ensure this is upheld,” the Republican senator added.

“Sen. Paul introduced S.583, a bill that would implement equal protection under the 14th Amendment for the right to life of each born and unborn human,” the senator’s office said, per a press release.

“This legislation does not amend or interpret the Constitution, but simply relies on the 14th Amendment, which specifically authorizes Congress to enforce its provisions,” his office adds.

Here is what Section 1 of the 14th Amendment states:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
The bill has 15 cosponsors (all Republican) including Sens. John Barrasso (Wyo.), John Boozman (Ark.), Richard Burr (N.C.), Daniel Coats (Ind.), Thomas Coburn (Okla.), Michael Enzi (Wyo.), Deb Fischer (Neb.), Charles “Chuck” Grassley (Iowa), John Hoeven (N.D.), James “Jim” Inhofe (Okla.), Mike Johanns (Neb.), Jerry Moran (Kan.), James Risch (Idaho), John Thune (S.D.), and Roger Wicker (Miss.)

“The Life at Conception Act legislatively declares what most Americans believe and what science has long known — that human life begins at the moment of conception, and therefore is entitled to legal protection,” Sen. Paul said.

“The right to life is guaranteed to all Americans in the Declaration of Independence and ensuring this is upheld is the Constitutional duty of all Members of Congress,” he added.





Senator Rand PaulVerified account@SenRandPaul Introduced Life at Conception Act. The right to life is guaranteed to all Americans & I plan to ensure this is upheld.


http://www.paul.senate.gov/files/documents/LCA.pdf
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:15 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Raiderhader View Post
What about men who want to become fathers and keep the baby? You realize they have no say don't you?
When you have the ability to poop out a baby, you'll get to decide that.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:20 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
You raise a good point. There really are a lot conflicting "right" viewpoints that speak specifically to this issue. It's something I'm going to have to think about before I can give an opinion.
Here you go, treat them as crops! "Hey I planted a seed there, its my right to harvest!"
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In the common law, emblements are annual crops produced by cultivation legally belonging to the tenant with the implied right for its harvest, and are treated as the tenant's property.[1]
The doctrine chiefly comes into play in the law of landlord and tenant, or in the foreclosure of mortgages and other legal situations that place the rights of another party in contention with those of a farmer who has planted a crop yet to be harvested. In these situations, the doctrine of emblements operates to guarantee the farmer's right to reap and carry away the fruits of his labor even if he loses title to the land on which they are grown.[2]
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:17 PM   #213
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I don't think it's common sense. It's just an argument over a definition.
the point is, there is NO way to have anything outside of a teleological definition that is sufficient to draw the line, so we have to come up with our best guess. A line that fits our intuitions. If I said, "I have something behind this curtain and I want you to tell me if it is a HUMAN BEING. Then I draw the curtain away and I reveal a wig made out of real human hair. Nobody would call that wig a human being. But by the definitions that right to life people are making about DNA and human tissue, it should be. So, what is it about a wig made of human hair that makes it NOT a human being? It can't be teleological in nature (purpose or function driven) because we can always find counter intuitive examples of people who we want to call human beings (coma patients, etc...) who do not fit definitions of that type.

In the end, what we SAY is a human being is the definition. This is unfortunate, because certain minorities have been historically and tragically left out of the club due to prejudice and bigotry. Again, no good solution that I've ever heard of sufficiently addresses these problems.

But make no mistake, just because there isn't a solution, does not mean ridiculous things are more likely to be "true." That wig of hair is NOT a human being, and neither is a fertilized egg. This is as close to knowledge (using the smell test) that you can get.
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:53 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Viability is the wrong way to think about this issue. It's either alive or dead. Viability has been expanding to infanticide being a reason to kill now.
our fingernails are alive, human, growing, and have our DNA...

But fingernails are NOT human beings. The test should be:

If I draw back the curtain and reveal a thing, you should be able to identify it as a human being. The SMELL/EYE test is all we have to go on.

A human hair wig doesn't pass the smell test,
A clump of clipped fingernails doesn't pass,
A zygote doesn't pass either.


At some point, a developing fetus should cease to be a "fetus" and becomes a human being, the same way some batter in oven at some point becomes a cake. And since, there is no scientific way of standing there with a stopwatch and saying, "there it was! The moment our batter became cake!" all we can do is give it the eye test. It seems to me that most people are pretty adept at doing this, as long as they aren't unduly influenced by religious or political bias.
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:32 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by mcan View Post
the point is, there is NO way to have anything outside of a teleological definition that is sufficient to draw the line, so we have to come up with our best guess. A line that fits our intuitions. If I said, "I have something behind this curtain and I want you to tell me if it is a HUMAN BEING. Then I draw the curtain away and I reveal a wig made out of real human hair. Nobody would call that wig a human being. But by the definitions that right to life people are making about DNA and human tissue, it should be. So, what is it about a wig made of human hair that makes it NOT a human being? It can't be teleological in nature (purpose or function driven) because we can always find counter intuitive examples of people who we want to call human beings (coma patients, etc...) who do not fit definitions of that type.

In the end, what we SAY is a human being is the definition. This is unfortunate, because certain minorities have been historically and tragically left out of the club due to prejudice and bigotry. Again, no good solution that I've ever heard of sufficiently addresses these problems.

But make no mistake, just because there isn't a solution, does not mean ridiculous things are more likely to be "true." That wig of hair is NOT a human being, and neither is a fertilized egg. This is as close to knowledge (using the smell test) that you can get.
No, you were saying that YOUR definition is common sense. It's not. Nor is your assertion that a fertilized egg is not a human being. It smells right for you, but that doesn't prove anything.
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:37 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
No, you were saying that YOUR definition is common sense. It's not. Nor is your assertion that a fertilized egg is not a human being. It smells right for you, but that doesn't prove anything.
I'm exactly saying that there is NO proof. That's my whole point. But if I showed you a zygote in a microscope and you said "oh yeah, that's a human being" than you clearly have a bias that isn't coming from the pure smell/eye test.

A hairbrush looks more like a human being than a zygote.
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:38 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by DementedLogic View Post
Is a fetus part of a woman'a body? If it is, then why does it have it's own DNA?
No it isn't part of a woman's body as if it's a tissue blob. It even has it's own blood—not the same as the mother's. It's denialism, to say it's just part of a woman's body. It's just in the woman's body. It is it's own body and as such it has a right to live just as much as anyone. Remember, the Jews were considered mere flies. Dehumanization often precedes taking a life in order to justify the act.
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:39 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by mcan View Post
I'm exactly saying that there is NO proof. That's my whole point. But if I showed you a zygote in a microscope and you said "oh yeah, that's a human being" than you clearly have a bias that isn't coming from the pure smell/eye test.

A hairbrush looks more like a human being than a zygote.
There is proof. Always has been. Anything else is denialism.

Zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, baby, toddler, child, teen, adult, old person are all the same person.
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:42 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcan View Post
our fingernails are alive, human, growing, and have our DNA...

But fingernails are NOT human beings. The test should be:

If I draw back the curtain and reveal a thing, you should be able to identify it as a human being. The SMELL/EYE test is all we have to go on.

A human hair wig doesn't pass the smell test,
A clump of clipped fingernails doesn't pass,
A zygote doesn't pass either.


At some point, a developing fetus should cease to be a "fetus" and becomes a human being, the same way some batter in oven at some point becomes a cake. And since, there is no scientific way of standing there with a stopwatch and saying, "there it was! The moment our batter became cake!" all we can do is give it the eye test. It seems to me that most people are pretty adept at doing this, as long as they aren't unduly influenced by religious or political bias.
Nope. Embryology says you're wrong. Your science doesn't pass the smell test.

Furthermore, fingernails are merely one part of a human—not a whole human. They are alive because we're alive.
No, they don't continue to grow after death, the skin just dehydrates and shrinks away making it appear as if they've grown.
A zygote is a whole human life. Every human begins as a "single-cell zygote, grows through the embryonic stage, then the fetal stage, is born and develops through infancy, through childhood, and through adulthood, until death. Each human being is genetically the same human being at every stage, despite changes in his or her appearance.Embryologists are united on this point. " ~ Embryology: Inconvenient Facts
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Consider the following statements from standard textbooks: “Human development begins at fertilization.... This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual” (Keith L. Moore and T.V.N. Persaud); “Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote).... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual” (Bruce M. Carlson); “Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The embryo now exists as a genetic unity” (Ronan O’Rahilly and Faiola Muller).
http://www.firstthings.com/article/2...nient-facts-38

You are justifying it. That's what humans do when they do something wrong or harmful. Abortion is an act of aggression on another's right to life. We have a natural right to life and to a natural death. You're arguing something akin to eugenics and are corrupting science of life.
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Last edited by BucEyedPea; 03-20-2013 at 02:49 PM..
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:44 PM   #220
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a larva is NOT a fly.
a tadpole is NOT a frog.
an egg is NOT a chicken.
a caterpillar is NOT a butterfly
a zygote is NOT a fetus.
and a fetus is NOT a human being.


at some point, a PROCESS turns one of these things into the other.

A paradox, that has been closely and thoughtfully looked at for thousands of years, calls into question the ABILITY for us to find the exact crossover point where one thing becomes another. Therefore, we need to examine a way for us to arbitrarily declare a point. Notice, that's entirely a different thing than defining that point.
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:50 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcan View Post
a larva is NOT a fly.
a tadpole is NOT a frog.
an egg is NOT a chicken.
a caterpillar is NOT a butterfly
a zygote is NOT a fetus.
and a fetus is NOT a human being.


at some point, a PROCESS turns one of these things into the other.

A paradox, that has been closely and thoughtfully looked at for thousands of years, calls into question the ABILITY for us to find the exact crossover point where one thing becomes another. Therefore, we need to examine a way for us to arbitrarily declare a point. Notice, that's entirely a different thing than defining that point.
Nope.

It has not been looked at for thousands of years. Abortion had always been a capital offense for a long time because it was considered a person. In fact, bringing new human life into the world was once considered a form of wealth.

You're argument is akin to thinking the Jews were no more than mere flies in order to take their lives.
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:55 PM   #222
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Life begins at fertilization:

http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/ar...yoquotes2.html


"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."
[O'Rahilly, Ronan and Müller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12}]
The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]

"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."
[Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:00 PM   #223
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American Bio-Ethics Advisory Commission

The corruption of the science of Human Embryology
I am a scientist, a human embryologist. I have spent a career in a "publish or perish" profession using a great deal of that time writing grants, hoping to get some funded to keep a research program going, as well as teaching, mostly medical students. But in 1989 I came to the conclusion that the science of Human Embryology was being rewritten according to political correctness. It was then that I decided to try to correct the revisions.

Abortion, partial birth abortion, in-vitro fertilization, human fetal research, human embryo research, cloning and stem cell research are all core issues of Human Embryology. Yet, in all of the Supreme Court cases since 1973 and at all of the Congressional hearings on these issues, no human embryologist has been called as a witness and no reference to Human Embryology has ever been made. Further, among the NIH Human Embryo Research Advisory Panel, the National Bioethics Advisory Commission, and President Bush's Council on Bioethics, no human embryologist was appointed as a member, nor called as a witness.

Justice Harry Blackmun wrote in the Roe v Wade decision: "we need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins." Blackmun smeared the distinction between the biological (or embryological) meaning with the legal meaning, and conflated the two into his declaration. His inference was that he was talking about biological life without specifically stating so.

From this source followed a science of Human Embryology that has been parsed and perverted, revised and redefined, changed and corrupted. In fact, the transcripts of President Bush's Council on Bioethics clearly show how extreme the adulteration of the science of Human Embryology has become.

The media have especially ignored Human Embryology in their many articles on the core issues. The media have preferentially published a distortion of this science while totally ignoring the many references available for factual information. The impact of this on public policy has been staggering.

Every one of the core issues identified above is ultimately distilled down to the question of "When Does Human Life Begin?"

The answer is there in the textbooks of Human Embryology, that "human life" begins at fertilization, or conception, which is the same as fertilization. It has always been there, at least for 100 years. Yet, this simple fact, without referencing Human Embryology, has been parsed and corrupted into questioning whether life even exists at that time, and to redefining "conception" to mean "implantation," just to give two examples...


More here —http://www.all.org/abac/aq0203.htm
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:01 PM   #224
mcan mcan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/ar...yoquotes2.html


"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."
[O'Rahilly, Ronan and Müller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12}]
The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]

"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."
[Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]


Even your own quote mining contradicts itself. If it's already a human being, then it doesn't NEED development. It just needs maturation.

But it isn't a human being. Anymore than paint is a painting, or ink is a tattoo. This is patently obvious. If something is DEVELOPING into something else, it is NOT YET that other thing.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:01 PM   #225
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcan View Post
Even your own quote mining contradicts itself. If it's already a human being, then it doesn't NEED development. It just needs maturation.

But it isn't a human being. Anymore than paint is a painting, or ink is a tattoo. This is patently obvious. If something is DEVELOPING into something else, it is NOT YET that other thing.
Semantic gymnastics. You are still wrong.
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“Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.” — James Madison
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BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.
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