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View Poll Results: Should we have invaded Iraq on 3/19/03?
Yes 16 15.53%
No 84 81.55%
Too close to call at this point. Leave it to Gaz. Also, I'm a wishy-washy fop of a human being. 3 2.91%
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-19-2013, 06:56 AM  
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
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Invasion of Iraq 10 years later: Good move or mistake

10 years ago today the US invaded Iraq to overthrow the regime of Saddam Hussein. The after-effects of that decision are still being felt to this day, and obviously will continue to play out in the years and decades to come. At this milestone, however, knowing everything that you know now, should we have gone in, or not?

Regrets and hypotheticals aren't really the goal here. We could go on and on (and have, many times) about how the post-invasion situation was handled, etc. ad infinitum. You should vote simply on the facts as they have actually occurred over the last 10 years.

Poll forthcoming. Note that it will be a public poll.
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Old 03-21-2013, 01:51 AM   #151
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I'm a republican and even I thought it was bad move.
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:12 AM   #152
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Perhaps it's because you get so much of the more objective issues wrong, people aren't interested in arguing with you about the subjective issue of whether you think it cost too much money.
So, we are back to Cheney's Deficits don't matter?
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:16 AM   #153
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What good has come out of the Iraq war?
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:19 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Comrade Crapski View Post
yeah, how about that penchief? This is your first appearance in how long?

You ****ing scumbag POS.

Listen here, you scumbag POS. I was one of only a handful of people on this board who, throughout the entire buildup to war, took a very vocal stand against that stupid invasion.

Daily, I endured insults from pieces of shit like you who questioned both my manhood and my patriotism. As it turns out, I was proven right. Yet weak-minded idiots like you continue to cast aspersions upon those who were correct in that assessment.

I've been a member of this board since February 2003. I am on this board every day. And I read these threads. I don't post as much anymore because of fools like you. It is almost impossible to engage in an intelligent discussion while slogging through the barrage of mindless insults that your ilk litter this board with.

I'm a longtime member of this board. I opposed the Bush/Cheney/neocon agenda long before it was proven a colossal failure. And I served my country. So yeah, I have every right to comment on this topic at this time.

Eat shit, dumbass.
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:21 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Whoosh!
( You're being repetitive. I also don't agree it was meant to discredit. It's a sore point for my by the left. Futhermore, when threads get really long they do evolve. )
Here is the arguement as I see it:

You- I don't want to talk about the thousands of soldiers lost and trillions of dollars wasted on lie, Im going to bring up Libya

Me- you really want to bring up a successful military action in comparison with the Iraq war in a attempt to discredit my position? Lol

You - Hypocrite. And I am not going to address anything you said.

Me - I never said I agree with it. I was just pointing out the stupidity of what you are attempting to do by changing the subject. Do you view the engagements as equal? Were they both invasions, both occupations? Was one country actually in the process of removing their leader before involvement?

you - I'm not going to address anything you said and continue to say hypocrite or you don't get it (just like in ever thread).

Do you think we will have a thread celebrating the ten year mark of Libya? Why or why not?
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:26 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Perhaps it's because you get so much of the more objective issues wrong, people aren't interested in arguing with you about the subjective issue of whether you think it cost too much money.
Do you think we are paying off the War ten years later? How long do you think we will have to pay off this war? How much to do you think it added to the deficit? Do you agree with cutting taxes with going into two wars? Do you remember the budget surplus we had going into 2001, what happened to it?

It seems the Bush administration lowballed us on their little Iraq war by the tune of $6 trillion

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013...-cost-iraq-war



/Sure, I won't worry about the "subjective" issue of cost that by no means is affecting our Nation Now
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:33 AM   #157
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/op...r=rss&emc=rss&

How the Deficit Got This Big

By TERESA TRITCH

Published: July 23, 2011
With President Obama and Republican leaders calling for cutting the budget by trillions over the next 10 years, it is worth asking how we got here — from healthy surpluses at the end of the Clinton era, and the promise of future surpluses, to nine straight years of deficits, including the $1.3 trillion shortfall in 2010. The answer is largely the Bush-era tax cuts, war spending in Iraq and Afghanistan, and recessions.

Despite what antigovernment conservatives say, non-
defense discretionary spending on areas like foreign aid, education and food safety was not a driving factor in creating the deficits. In fact, such spending, accounting for only 15 percent of the budget, has been basically flat as a share of the economy for decades. Cutting it simply will not fill the deficit hole.

The first graph shows the difference between budget projections and budget reality. In 2001, President George W. Bush inherited a surplus, with projections by the Congressional Budget Office for ever-increasing surpluses, assuming continuation of the good economy and President Bill Clinton’s policies. But every year starting in 2002, the budget fell into deficit. In January 2009, just before President Obama took office, the budget office projected a $1.2 trillion deficit for 2009 and deficits in subsequent years, based on continuing Mr. Bush’s policies and the effects of recession. Mr. Obama’s policies in 2009 and 2010, including the stimulus package, added to the deficits in those years but are largely temporary.

The second graph shows that under Mr. Bush, tax cuts and war spending were the biggest policy drivers of the swing from projected surpluses to deficits from 2002 to 2009. Budget estimates that didn’t foresee the recessions in 2001 and in 2008 and 2009 also contributed to deficits. Mr. Obama’s policies, taken out to 2017, add to deficits, but not by nearly as much.

A few lessons can be drawn from the numbers. First, the Bush tax cuts have had a huge damaging effect. If all of them expired as scheduled at the end of 2012, future deficits would be cut by about half, to sustainable levels. Second, a healthy budget requires a healthy economy; recessions wreak havoc by reducing tax revenue. Government has to spur demand and create jobs in a deep downturn, even though doing so worsens the deficit in the short run. Third, spending cuts alone will not close the gap. The chronic revenue shortfalls from serial tax cuts are simply too deep to fill with spending cuts alone. Taxes have to go up.

In future decades, when rising health costs with an aging population hit the budget in full force, deficits are projected to be far deeper than they are now. Effective health care reform, and a willingness to pay more taxes, will be the biggest factors in controlling those deficits.

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Old 03-21-2013, 11:19 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
So, we are back to Cheney's Deficits don't matter?
I didn't say anything about Cheney or about deficits not mattering. If you could read as well as you can spam canned propaganda, you might have recognized that.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:20 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by penchief View Post
Listen here, you scumbag POS. I was one of only a handful of people on this board who, throughout the entire buildup to war, took a very vocal stand against that stupid invasion.

Daily, I endured insults from pieces of shit like you who questioned both my manhood and my patriotism. As it turns out, I was proven right. Yet weak-minded idiots like you continue to cast aspersions upon those who were correct in that assessment.

I've been a member of this board since February 2003. I am on this board every day. And I read these threads. I don't post as much anymore because of fools like you. It is almost impossible to engage in an intelligent discussion while slogging through the barrage of mindless insults that your ilk litter this board with.

I'm a longtime member of this board. I opposed the Bush/Cheney/neocon agenda long before it was proven a colossal failure. And I served my country. So yeah, I have every right to comment on this topic at this time.

Eat shit, dumbass.
You're still wrong, penchief.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:22 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Here is the arguement as I see it:

You- I don't want to talk about the thousands of soldiers lost and trillions of dollars wasted on lie, Im going to bring up Libya

Me- you really want to bring up a successful military action in comparison with the Iraq war in a attempt to discredit my position? Lol

You - Hypocrite. And I am not going to address anything you said.

Me - I never said I agree with it. I was just pointing out the stupidity of what you are attempting to do by changing the subject. Do you view the engagements as equal? Were they both invasions, both occupations? Was one country actually in the process of removing their leader before involvement?

you - I'm not going to address anything you said and continue to say hypocrite or you don't get it (just like in ever thread).

Do you think we will have a thread celebrating the ten year mark of Libya? Why or why not?
Changing the subject like bringing up, out of the blue, Cheney and an alleged comment he made that's been taken out of context? Are you criticizing her for changing the subject right after you tried to do the same thing?
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:37 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...q-war-timeline

Lie by Lie: A Timeline of How We Got Into Iraq

3/5/02 Joe Wilson tells CIA there's no indication that Iraq is buying yellowcake. [Date the public knew: 7/6/03]

3/8/02 First of Downing Street memos prepared by Tony Blair's top national security aides. "There is no greater threat now than in recent years that Saddam will use WMD…Washington believes the legal basis for an attack on Iraq already exists…Regime change has no basis in international law." [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]

3/12/02 Color-coded terror alert system introduced.

3/13/02 Bush on Osama: "I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him."

3/14/02 Downing Street memo: "Condi's enthusiasm for regime change is undimmed…Bush has yet to find the answers to the big questions…what happens the morning after?" [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]

3/15/02 British intel reports that there's only "sporadic and patchy" evidence of Iraqi WMD. "There is no intelligence on any [biological weapons] production facilities." [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]

3/22/02 Downing Street memo: "US scrambling to establish a link between Iraq and Al Qaida is so far frankly unconvincing…We are still left with a problem of bringing public opinion to accept the imminence of a threat from Iraq…Regime change does not stack up. It sounds like a grudge between Bush and Saddam." [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]

3/24/02 Saddam "is actively pursuing nuclear weapons at this time."—Cheney on CNN

3/25/02 Downing Street memo: "There has been no credible evidence to link Iraq with Al Qaida…In the documents so far presented it has been hard to glean whether the threat from Iraq is so significantly different from that of Iran or North Korea as to justify action." [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]

Late March 2002 Cheney tells Republican senators that the question is no longer if the US will invade Iraq but when. [Date the public knew: 5/5/02]

...
June 2002 Iraq bombing begins. Military will fly 21,736 sorties and attack 349 targets between now and the start of the war.

...

9/13/02 Cheney tells Rush Limbaugh: "What's happening, of course, is we're getting additional information that, in fact, Hussein is reconstituting his biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons programs." There is no such new intel.

...
Jan. 2003 CIA balks at being made to bolster weak WMD intel. In a heated conversation with Scooter Libby, CIA's McLaughlin says: "I'm not going back to the well on this. We've done our work." [Date the public knew: 10/3/05]

...
1/9/03 After nearly two months, UN's Hans Blix says his inspectors have not found any "smoking guns" in Ira

...

1/31/03 Notes of meeting between Bush and Blair make clear Bush intends to invade Iraq even if UN inspectors found no evidence of WMD. Bush told Blair he'd considered "flying U2 reconnaissance planes…over Iraq, painted in UN colours" to tempt Iraqi forces to fire on them, which would constitute a breach of UN resolutions. [Date the public knew: 2/3/06]

2/1/03 During UN speech rehearsal, Powell throws draft written by Libby into the air and says: "I'm not reading this. This is bullshit." [Date the public knew: 6/9/03]

2/4/03 After reading draft of Powell's speech, CIA agent emails his superior with concerns about "the validity of the information based on 'CURVE BALL.'" Noting he's the only US agent to have ever met Curveball (who was hung over at the time), the agent asks: "We sure didn't give much credence to this report when it came out. Why now?" Deputy head of CIA's Iraqi Task Force responds: "Let's keep in mind the fact that this war's going to happen regardless of what Curveball said or didn't say…the Powers That Be probably aren't terribly interested in whether Curveball knows what he's talking about." [Date the public knew: 7/9/04]

/There are a numerous other ones provided
//I'm looking forward to seeing how you spin all of them, you got a knack.
So anyway, getting back to the topic we were discussing, I challenged you for posting a hyperpartisan report written entirely by democrats working for one of the most liberal Senators in the US Senate that claimed there were a couple of hundred misleading statements made by the administration. I pointed out that some of the statements aren't intentionally misleading and you respond with another wall of text, canned propaganda piece. I'm not going to attempt to counter every lie you post, line by line. What is the point you're trying to get across with this post?
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:59 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by penchief View Post
Listen here, you scumbag POS. I was one of only a handful of people on this board who, throughout the entire buildup to war, took a very vocal stand against that stupid invasion.

Daily, I endured insults from pieces of shit like you who questioned both my manhood and my patriotism. As it turns out, I was proven right. Yet weak-minded idiots like you continue to cast aspersions upon those who were correct in that assessment.

I've been a member of this board since February 2003. I am on this board every day. And I read these threads. I don't post as much anymore because of fools like you. It is almost impossible to engage in an intelligent discussion while slogging through the barrage of mindless insults that your ilk litter this board with.

I'm a longtime member of this board. I opposed the Bush/Cheney/neocon agenda long before it was proven a colossal failure. And I served my country. So yeah, I have every right to comment on this topic at this time.

Eat shit, dumbass.
Oh to do a step by step, play by play from 2004 until now.

For one thing, i don't think I was even posting in this forum until 2008? But anyway enjoy your little reprieve from talking about Dear Leader WHO I HAVE BEEN RIGHT ABOUT SINCE DAY ONE THAT SKINNY GRINNING BASTARD SHOWED UP ON THE OPRAH WINFREY SHOW and enjoy your little ten year anniversary where you can gloat and piss all over George Bush and Dick Cheney.

Your 15 minutes are just about up, and now you can crawl back under your rock you coward POS.
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Old 03-21-2013, 01:29 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
So anyway, getting back to the topic we were discussing, I challenged you for posting a hyperpartisan report written entirely by democrats working for one of the most liberal Senators in the US Senate that claimed there were a couple of hundred misleading statements made by the administration. I pointed out that some of the statements aren't intentionally misleading and you respond with another wall of text, canned propaganda piece. I'm not going to attempt to counter every lie you post, line by line. What is the point you're trying to get across with this post?
You said this "people aren't interested in arguing with you about the subjective issue of whether you think it cost too much money." Which means you think the deficit the spending for the war was okay. Or as Cheney said, deficits don't matter. That wasn't changing the subject. Its more pointing out how Republicans are fine with deficit spending when a Republican is in the White house.

You are wrong that they weren't intentionally misleading, as the evidence I supplied shows. You haven't provided your own.

I enjoy your typical, uncreative, closed minded response of attacking the source instead of actually debating the content or supplying your own sources to counter. I know in the conservative media bubble, attacking the source is accepted, but in reality, it doesn't work. Saying things are lies doesn't make it true without evidence. Try being less lazy in your counter points.

My point? Hmm. Let see, we wasted thousands of American lives and spent trillions of dollars and only accomplished running up the debt. The very debt today that is so big of a problem. Also, that piece you quoted offers a ton of evidence, cited, that the war was based on a lie. What do you think my point is? Did you even look over it?

So, tell me, do you think the deficit is a problem today? If you do, you accept the part the war played? Why or why not?
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Old 03-21-2013, 01:52 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
You said this "people aren't interested in arguing with you about the subjective issue of whether you think it cost too much money." Which means you think the deficit the spending for the war was okay. Or as Cheney said, deficits don't matter. That wasn't changing the subject. Its more pointing out how Republicans are fine with deficit spending when a Republican is in the White house.
If you mention leprechauns and I say I'm not interested in talking about the leprechauns, that doesn't give you the opening to talk about leprechauns without changing of subject. It's still a change of subject.

And your interpretations of what my statements mean are horrible. What grade do you read at?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
You are wrong that they weren't intentionally misleading, as the evidence I supplied shows. You haven't provided your own.
You haven't provided any evidence. All you've done is copy/paste walls of text that are filled with nonsense. There may have been a useful kernel of information in there, but your spam approach isn't conducive to advancing our discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
I enjoy your typical, uncreative, closed minded response of attacking the source instead of actually debating the content or supplying your own sources to counter. I know in the conservative media bubble, attacking the source is accepted, but in reality, it doesn't work. Saying things are lies doesn't make it true without evidence. Try being less lazy in your counter points.
As soon as you sharpen your point to something worth discussing, I'll be glad to respond to it. Don't make me wade through a bunch of bullshit, false claims, and partisan opinion to find it though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
My point? Hmm. Let see, we wasted thousands of American lives and spent trillions of dollars and only accomplished running up the debt. The very debt today that is so big of a problem. Also, that piece you quoted offers a ton of evidence, cited, that the war was based on a lie. What do you think my point is? Did you even look over it?
I think your point is that you swallow whatever your liberal overlords tell you to believe and you don't think for yourself. If you did, you'd be able to articulate a point and provide specific, relevant examples/evidence/support in a coherent manner instead of just posting lengthy tangentially connected liberal commentary hoping that the provocative titles will carry the day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
So, tell me, do you think the deficit is a problem today? If you do, you accept the part the war played? Why or why not?
I have an answer for this, but again, it's a change of subject and I'd rather go back to the topic of misleading statements to find out just what you think happened.
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"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:18 PM   #165
penchief penchief is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Casino cash: $24746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrade Crapski View Post
Oh to do a step by step, play by play from 2004 until now.

For one thing, i don't think I was even posting in this forum until 2008? But anyway enjoy your little reprieve from talking about Dear Leader WHO I HAVE BEEN RIGHT ABOUT SINCE DAY ONE THAT SKINNY GRINNING BASTARD SHOWED UP ON THE OPRAH WINFREY SHOW and enjoy your little ten year anniversary where you can gloat and piss all over George Bush and Dick Cheney.

Your 15 minutes are just about up, and now you can crawl back under your rock you coward POS.
It's obvious that you're the coward here. You hide behind a keyboard slinging insults at anyone who disagrees with your crazy bullshit. Everyone can see that you're overcompensating for something.

Probably the only thing smaller than your dick is your brain because you're obviously too stupid to recognize why you act the way you do. You make that draft dodging whacko pussy, Ted Nugent, look like a ****ing genius.

You're just another loud-mouthed right wing chicken hawk who talks a big game but doesn't have the balls to put your money where your mouth is. Just like your draft-dodging heroes, Bush & Cheney.

The only one who needs to crawl back under a rock is you. You, disrespectful POS coward.
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