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View Poll Results: Should we have invaded Iraq on 3/19/03?
Yes 16 15.53%
No 84 81.55%
Too close to call at this point. Leave it to Gaz. Also, I'm a wishy-washy fop of a human being. 3 2.91%
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-19-2013, 07:56 AM  
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
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Invasion of Iraq 10 years later: Good move or mistake

10 years ago today the US invaded Iraq to overthrow the regime of Saddam Hussein. The after-effects of that decision are still being felt to this day, and obviously will continue to play out in the years and decades to come. At this milestone, however, knowing everything that you know now, should we have gone in, or not?

Regrets and hypotheticals aren't really the goal here. We could go on and on (and have, many times) about how the post-invasion situation was handled, etc. ad infinitum. You should vote simply on the facts as they have actually occurred over the last 10 years.

Poll forthcoming. Note that it will be a public poll.
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:55 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I don't know what this Hubris documentary you're talking about it is because I don't spend much time in the liberal media bubble.

There was no Meet the Press on that date. They don't do Meet the Press on Fridays. So no, it can't possibly exist. Now if you got the date wrong, that's fine, just figure out what you're talking about and get back to me. Right now it looks a lot like you're just blowing smoke.
I don't know WTF is your problem here. I posted many direct quotes and you decide to zoom in on one damn date like that is somehow going to refute their own damn words that they spoke willingly into a camera to make their case to the American people. I have no idea why its labeled Dec. 9th 2001. maybe because thats when it was taped to show on a Sunday. Regardless, the date is on the video clip. It's not altered. This is the first clip on a search. He is trying to deny it but the MTP clip owns him. You still want to call BS? Look at yourself. Ask why you think Cheney is incapable of making a mistake or being wrong?
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:18 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
I know you lack reading comprehension, but what is really so hard about figuring out the point of the post was that officials made misleading statements about the War in Iraq. The sold B.S. intelligence to the public.

Can you disprove that? With your own evidence?

Let us stick with two examples:
Perfect. Thank you.

Neither of these two specific items means what you think they mean. You've experienced a logic failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
3/5/02 Joe Wilson tells CIA there's no indication that Iraq is buying yellowcake. [Date the public knew: 7/6/03]

This tells us that the Administration knew that Iraq did not have yellow cake, but the Administration withheld that information from the public until after we had gone into Iraq. Therefore, the American public was purposely mislead on Iraq.
No, this doesn't mean that the Administration knew Iraq did not have yellow cake. First of all, the allegation was that they were trying to get yellow cake, not that they actually had it. Second, the Joe Wilson input is just one of multiple inputs to the intelligence picture. Other inputs indicated that Iraq did indeed attempt to get yellow cake.

The statement of the administration wasn't that Joe Wilson had confirmed an Iraqi attempt to get yellow cake (which could have been a lie), it was that British Intelligence had indicated that Iraq was attempting to get yellow cake. Not only is that not misleading, it's literally true. The Butler Report which resulted from a British investigation into pre-war intelligence concluded that the Bush administration's statement on yellow cake was "well founded".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
3/15/02 British intel reports that there's only "sporadic and patchy" evidence of Iraqi WMD. "There is no intelligence on any [biological weapons] production facilities." [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]

Same with this one. The Administration withheld vital information to sell the war.
Again, your source is cherry picking individual intelligence inputs without looking at the broad picture of intelligence from which final assessments are drawn.

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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Can you prove that the administration did not withhold information?
Is this a serious question? No one argues that the administration was an open book when it came intelligence, nor should they have been. Governments keep secrets for national security purposes. Is this news to you?
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:21 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by whoman69 View Post
Horrible mistake. Every supposed reason for going to war was either proven false or overblown. It was all about regime change and getting our hands on Iraqi oil.

The execution of the war was criminally incompetent. We used three times as many troops in the first Gulf War and didn't plan to occupy a hostile country afterwards. The decisions were fueled by yes men afraid of telling Rumsfeld the plan was poised to fail.

We pulled out of Afghanistan putting the security of that country at grave risk which allowed Bin Laden to escape. It shouldn't have taken 13 years to get out of Afghanistan.

The war is also one of the major contributors to the deficit. If you voted for the Iraq war and continued tax cuts for the 1%, you should have zero room to talk about deficits.
It was never about getting our hands on Iraqi oil. That's a liberal media bubble fantasy. It was also never about daddy issues or serving the illuminati either, in case you're entertaining those thoughts.
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:28 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
I don't know WTF is your problem here. I posted many direct quotes and you decide to zoom in on one damn date like that is somehow going to refute their own damn words that they spoke willingly into a camera to make their case to the American people. I have no idea why its labeled Dec. 9th 2001. maybe because thats when it was taped to show on a Sunday. Regardless, the date is on the video clip. It's not altered. This is the first clip on a search. He is trying to deny it but the MTP clip owns him. You still want to call BS?
My problem is really your problem.

1. You didn't post direct quotes, you used your own words and I have zero confidence in your ability to do so accurately and fairly when it comes to politics.

2. Most of your first response in this exchange (post 276) was irrelevant to the topic of whether or not the administration claimed that Iraq was behind 9/11. The only responsive part was your Meet The Press claim. That's why I zeroed in on it.

3. Since you didn't provide a direct quote and since the only cite was a date, I zeroed in on that date and tried to find the video myself. Since Meet the Press doesn't air on that date, I came up empty.

I'm currently unable to watch the video you've attached, but when I have the ability, I'll do so and respond directly to whatever it contains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
Look at yourself. Ask why you think Cheney is incapable of making a mistake or being wrong?
This is a change of subject. I don't know why you think I don't believe Cheney can make mistakes or be wrong. I'm completely comfortable with the idea that we all make mistakes, even Dick Cheney. But we're not talking about mistakes here. Cheney has been accused of misleading (and I interpret that as "intentionally misleading") or lying to the American people.
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:42 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Cheney has been accused of misleading (and I interpret that as "intentionally misleading") or lying to the American people.
And the jury of the American public has deemed him guilty. IMHO, historians will agree.
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:58 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
And the jury of the American public has deemed him guilty. IMHO, historians will agree.
The appeal to popularity fallacy doesn't help your position.
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:59 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
I don't know WTF is your problem here. I posted many direct quotes and you decide to zoom in on one damn date like that is somehow going to refute their own damn words that they spoke willingly into a camera to make their case to the American people. I have no idea why its labeled Dec. 9th 2001. maybe because thats when it was taped to show on a Sunday. Regardless, the date is on the video clip. It's not altered. This is the first clip on a search. He is trying to deny it but the MTP clip owns him. You still want to call BS? Look at yourself. Ask why you think Cheney is incapable of making a mistake or being wrong?
did our friend look at this video? there didn't seem to be any response to cheney's obvious lie on mtp...
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:01 PM   #308
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wtf happened to the video????

are those damnable mods banning it for bumping old threads?
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Old 03-24-2013, 01:30 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
It was never about getting our hands on Iraqi oil. That's a liberal media bubble fantasy. It was also never about daddy issues or serving the illuminati either, in case you're entertaining those thoughts.
It was never about the oil.
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:03 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by go bowe View Post
did our friend look at this video? there didn't seem to be any response to cheney's obvious lie on mtp...
It's all BS deflection. You got the date wrong (I didn't). I provide the exact video where he says the exact thing I said he said. Still not good enough. Can't see it? It's embeded on this board. How can you not see it?
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:07 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
It was never about getting our hands on Iraqi oil. That's a liberal media bubble fantasy. It was also never about daddy issues or serving the illuminati either, in case you're entertaining those thoughts.
Saying oil had nothing to do with this is just silly~
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:09 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by whoman69 View Post
It was never about the oil.
It was never about getting our hands on it.
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:10 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by RNR View Post
Saying oil had nothing to do with this is just silly~
I didn't say that. It had a lot to do with oil. It didn't have anything to do with us getting our hands on Iraqi oil though. This wasn't a war of conquest and it never was.
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:19 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I didn't say that. It had a lot to do with oil. It didn't have anything to do with us getting our hands on Iraqi oil though. This wasn't a war of conquest and it never was.
Maintaining the ability to have a user friendly government in place had much to do with it. Guess what there is not a ****ing thing wrong with that. I posted a video a few posts back where Hitchens talks on this subject. I still need to spend some time on this topic. The shitbag liberals take a fashionable stance on this and they can ****off~
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:41 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
OK, I've watched your video and I'm embarrassed for you. You're a really nice guy, but your gullibility for the fake information you get from the liberal media bubble is amazing. The first things you should ask yourself when you see something like this is how much credibility should I give an out of context news clip that's built on an out of context news clip. How much chance is there that I'm being led astray? The answers to these questions should be "very little" and "very great" respectively, at least until you verify them with transcripts.

As it turns out, I can't find the transcript for that original Cheney interview anywhere. NBC's archive only goes back 10 years and the Obama administration has purged the WH website transcript (I'm suggesting nothing nefarious here). But I do find an interview between Russert and Cheney that refers to that original discussion several years later where Cheney describes the nuance of his comment and the "pretty well confirmed" statement. There's also a lot more that you can learn from Cheney here so you should read the entire thing:

Quote:
VICE PRES. CHENEY: Let’s, let’s, let’s go back to the beginning here. Five years ago, Tim, you and I did this show, the Sunday after 9/11. And we learned a lot from 9/11. We saw, in spite of the hundreds of billions of dollars we’d spent on national security in the years up to 9/11, on that morning, 19 men with box cutters and airline tickets came into the country and killed 3,000 people. We had to take that and, and also the fact of their interest of weapons of mass destruction and recognize, at that time, it was the threat then and it’s the threat today that drives much of our thinking, that the real threat is the possibility of a cell of al-Qaeda in the midst of one of our own cities with a nuclear weapon, or a biological agent. In that case, you’d be dealing—for example, if on 9/11 they’d had a nuke instead of an airplane, you’d have been looking at a casualty toll that would rival all the deaths in all the wars fought by Americans in 230 years. That’s the threat we have to deal with, and that drove our thinking in the aftermath of 9/11 and does today.

Now, what Saddam represented was somebody who had for 12 years defied the international community, violated 16 U.N. Security Council resolutions, started two wars, produced and used weapons of mass destruction and was deemed by the intelligence community to have resumed his WMD programs when he kicked out the inspectors. Everybody believed it. Bill Clinton believed it, the CIA clearly believed it. And without question, it was a major proposition. But I also emphasize while they found no stockpiles, there was no question in the minds of Mr. Duelfer and others in that survey group that Saddam did in fact have the capability and that as soon as the sanctions were ended—and they were badly eroded—he would be back in business again.

MR. RUSSERT: But let’s look at what you told me on that morning of September 16, 2001, when I asked you about Saddam Hussein. Let’s watch.

(Videotape, September 16, 2001):

VICE PRES. CHENEY: At this stage, the focus is over here on al-Qaeda and the most recent events in New York. Saddam Hussein is bottled up at this point.

MR. RUSSERT: Do we have any evidence linking Saddam Hussein or Iraqis to this operation?

VICE PRES. CHENEY: No.

(End of videotape)

MR. RUSSERT: You said Saddam Hussein was bottled up.

VICE PRES. CHENEY: Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: And he was not linked in any way to September 11.

VICE PRES. CHENEY: To 9/11.

MR. RUSSERT: And now we have the Select Committee on Intelligence coming out with a report on Friday, it says here, “A declassified report released [Friday] by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence revealed that U.S. intelligence analysts were strongly disputing the alleged links between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda while senior Bush administration officials were publicly asserting those links to justify invading Iraq.”

You said here that it was pretty well confirmed that Atta may have had a meeting in Prague, that that was credible. All the while, according to the Senate Intelligence Committee in January and in June and in September, the CIA was saying that wasn’t the case. And then the president...

VICE PRES. CHENEY: Well, let me, let me—on that—well, go ahead.

MR. RUSSERT: No, go ahead.

VICE PRES. CHENEY: No, I want a, I want a chance to jump on that.

MR. RUSSERT: OK, but, but you said it was pretty well confirmed that it was credible and now the Senate Intelligence Committee says not true, The CIA was waving you off.

VICE PRES. CHENEY: No.

MR. RUSSERT: Any suggestion there was a meeting with Mohamed Atta, one of the hijackers, with Iraqi officials?

VICE PRES. CHENEY: No. The sequence, Tim, was, when you and I talked that morning, we had not received any reporting with respect to Mohamed Atta going to Prague. Just a few days after you and I did that show, the CIA, CIA produced an intelligence report from the Czech Intelligence Service that said Mohammad Atta, leader of the hijackers, had been in Prague in April of ‘01 and had met with the senior Iraqi intelligence official in Prague. That was the first report we had that he’d been to Prague and met with Iraqis. Later on, some period of time after that, the CIA produced another report based on a photographer—on a photograph that was taken in Prague of a man they claim 70 percent probability was Mohammad Atta on another occasion. This was the reporting we received from the CIA when I responded to your question and said it had been pretty well confirmed that he’d been in Prague. The—later on, they were unable to confirm it. Later on, they backed off of it.

But what I told you was exactly what we were receiving at the time. It never said, and I don’t believe I ever said, specifically, that it linked the Iraqis to 9/11. It specifically said he had been in Prague, Mohamed Atta had been in Prague and we didn’t know...

MR. RUSSERT: Well, I asked you, I said, “is there a connection between Saddam and 9/11 on September ‘03” and you said “we don’t know.”

VICE PRES. CHENEY: (Unintelligible). That’s right.

MR. RUSSERT: So you raised that possibility.

VICE PRES. CHENEY: It was raised by the CIA who passed on the report from the Czech Intelligence Service.

MR. RUSSERT: All right. Now the president has been asked, “What did Iraq have to do with the attack on the World Trade Center?” and he said “nothing.” Do you agree with that?

VICE PRES. CHENEY: I do. So it’s not...

MR. RUSSERT: So it’s case, case closed.

VICE PRES. CHENEY: We’ve never been able to confirm any connection between Iraq and 9/11.

MR. RUSSERT: And the meeting with Atta did not occur?

VICE PRES. CHENEY: We don’t know. I mean, we’ve never been able to, to, to link it, and the FBI and CIA have worked it aggressively. I would say, at this point, nobody has been able to confirm...


MR. RUSSERT: Then why, in the lead-up to the war, was there the constant linkage between Iraq and al-Qaeda?

VICE PRES. CHENEY: That’s a different issue. Now, there’s a question of whether or not al-Qaeda, or whether or not Iraq was involved in 9/11. There’s a separate—apart from that’s the issue of whether or not there was a historic relationship between Iraq and al-Qaeda. The basis for that is probably best captured in George Tenet’s testimony before the Senate Intel Commission, an open session, where he said specifically that there was a pattern of relationship that went back at least a decade between Iraq and al-Qaeda.

MR. RUSSERT: But the president said they were working in concert, giving the strong suggestion to the American people that they were involved in September 11th.

VICE PRES. CHENEY: No. There are, there are two totally different propositions here, and people have consistently tried to confuse them. And it’s important, I think—there’s a third proposition, as well, too, and that is Iraq’s traditional position as a strong sponsor of terror.

So you’ve got Iraq and 9/11, no evidence that there’s a connection. You’ve got Iraq and al-Qaeda, testimony from the director of CIA that there was indeed a relationship, Zarqawi in Baghdad, etc. Then the third...
Furthermore, here's a blog entry from a conservative blogger who links to the transcript on the now purged White House website in defense of Cheney when this particular false charge was initiated. No matter how dismissive you want to be of this source, the fact that he links directly to a web page that once contained the actual transcript (instead of the out of context snippet that you're relying on) should tell you that he wasn't afraid of exposing Cheney's real words to the light of scrutiny.

I challenge you to provide context of that clip that shows Cheney and I are wrong and that you were right.
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"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
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