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Old 04-10-2013, 10:29 PM  
Taco John Taco John is offline
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Obama calls for cigarette tax hike of 94 cents a pack

At least he's paying it too, I suppose.


Obama calls for cigarette tax hike of 94 cents a pack

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) — President Obama’s call for a 94-cent-a-pack hike on federal cigarette taxes to fund early childhood education programs is controversial.

Anti-smoking groups applaud the proposal, but some tax experts and tobacco companies are against it.

The case for the tax. The tax is being presented as way to fund education and reduce smoking rates. It would raise roughly $78 billion over 10 years.
“The proposed tobacco tax increase would have substantial public health benefits, particularly for young Americans,” the president’s budget read. “Researchers have found that raising taxes on cigarettes significantly reduces consumption, with especially large effects on youth smoking.”

After a 62-cent-a-pack tax hike was passed in 2009, cigarette sales dropped by 10%, according to the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids.

There’s also little doubt that fewer people smoking is a good thing for society. Costs related to smoking amount to $193 billion a year in both direct medical payments and lost productivity, according to a Centers for Disease Control study done during the early part of the last decade. Smoking kills about 443,000 people each year.

Passing the tax “would be a giant step toward winning the fight against tobacco, the nation’s number one cause of preventable death,” Matthew Myers, president of the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, said in a statement.
Why it may be a bad idea. The biggest argument against the tax is that it will fund early childhood education on the backs of the poor. Not only is the tax not progressive – it does not go up the more money one makes — but a higher percent of smokers are middle or low income.

The median household income for a smoker in 2011 was $27,700 compared to $45,761 for nonsmokers, according to Reynolds American, a cigarette maker which is, unsurprisingly, against the tax.

Nearly half of all smokers had a household income of less than $25,000 a year. Meanwhile, under 15% of smokers had a household income over $75,000.
“The idea of increasing taxes on low- to middle-income Americans at this time is ludicrous,” Bryan Hatchell, a spokesman for Reynolds American, said in a statement. “The effect of the payroll tax increase this year, along with higher gas and food prices, have hit hard millions of Americans who are simply trying to keep their heads above water financially.”

Anti-smoking groups counter that the poor are especially vulnerable to smoking’s ill effects, as they often lack healthcare and are less prepared financially to deal with an illness.

Cigarette taxes across the nation. Many smokers already pay a high tax rate for cigarettes. The current federal tax rate is $1.01 a pack, but the taxes don’t stop there. So Obama is proposing an increase to $1.95 a pack.
Some states and municipalities have also used cigarette taxes as a cash cow for years. In New York City, the country’s highest-tax area, combined state and local taxes add up to $5.85 a pack, according to the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids. In Manhattan, a pack of cigarettes can cost $14, while at an airport duty free shop they can be as low as $3 or $4 a pack.

But the taxes are low in other states. In Missouri, state taxes are just 17 cents a pack. The average price of a pack of cigarettes nationwide is $6, with taxes making up $2.49 of that.

Some economists question how wise it is to fund what will presumably be a long term program — early childhood education — with revenue that will likely fall over time. About 20% of Americans smoke, a number that has dropped considerably over the past several decades. The tax itself is specifically designed to get people to stop buying cigarettes.

Others say that while the tax won’t be to much of a burden on the overall economy, it will hit smokers and those that work in the industry hard. They say the president could raise far more money by focusing on spending cuts.
“It’s excellent politics, but it doesn’t make good economics,” said William McBride, chief economist at the Tax Foundation, a think tank that advocates for lower taxes.

http://wqad.com/2013/04/10/obama-cal...-cents-a-pack/
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:15 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by mikey23545 View Post
From "The Case Against Smoking Bans"
THOMAS A. LAMBERT
University of Missouri–Columbia School of Law

"This argument suffers from several weaknesses. First and
most importantly, the initial premise is unsound. According to
a comprehensive study in the New England Journal of Medicine in
1997, smoking probably has the effect of reducing overall health
care costs because smokers die earlier than nonsmokers. The
study’s authors concluded that in a population in which no one
smoked, health care costs would be 7 percent higher among men
and 4 percent higher among women than the costs in the current mixed population of smokers and nonsmokers. The authors further determined that if all smokers were to quit, health care costs would be lower at first, but after 15 years they would become higher than at present."

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/f...12/v29n4-4.pdf
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:16 PM   #137
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I am all for user taxes
Even when they're egregious evidently.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:18 PM   #138
Cephalic Trauma Cephalic Trauma is offline
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Originally Posted by mikey23545 View Post
From "The Case Against Smoking Bans"
THOMAS A. LAMBERT
University of Missouri–Columbia School of Law

"This argument suffers from several weaknesses. First and most importantly, the initial premise is unsound. According to a comprehensive study in the New England Journal of Medicine in 1997, smoking probably has the effect of reducing overall health care costs because smokers die earlier than nonsmokers. The study’s authors concluded that in a population in which no one smoked, health care costs would be 7 percent higher among men and 4 percent higher among women than the costs in the current mixed population of smokers and nonsmokers. The authors further determined that if all smokers were to quit, health care costs would be lower at first, but after 15 years they would become higher than at present."

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/f...12/v29n4-4.pdf
That's the first one I posted, which has 4 or 5 different independent research groups "poking holes" in it with data in the second link I posted.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:20 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Cephalic Trauma View Post
The COMMENTS which cite other sources that provide DATA which is what studies usually PUBLISH though I didn't DIRECTLY link it.

SORRY.
No need to apologize, just stop and think before you post idiotic shit. Nothing you have posted supports your original contention it only attacks the opposing view. That's fine and all but offer some proof that smokers significantly cost tax payers more.

We're still waiting.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:24 PM   #140
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Taxation is a system of choices. I don't drive that much (if ever), but I have to pay for everyone else to have a functional road system. And god forbid we talk about publicly financing other transit options.

Now I'd love to have a higher gas tax, and more toll roads. But as a society, we've made a choice to say I'm wrong. So I can piss and moan about that, or I can just get over it.
“Road Tax” is added to the gasoline you purchase so if all you’re doing is paying the yearly property tax on your vehicle(s) and not driving it (them) you’re not contributing as much to road maintenance as someone that travels more.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:32 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Radar Chief View Post
“Road Tax” is added to the gasoline you purchase so if all you’re doing is paying the yearly property tax on your vehicle(s) and not driving it (them) you’re not contributing as much to road maintenance as someone that travels more.
Yeah, but the gas tax doesn't nearly cover the cost of driving a car. It'd be like putting a 1 cent tax on a pack of cigarettes and saying, "now we cool bro."
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:33 PM   #142
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No need to apologize, just stop and think before you post idiotic shit. Nothing you have posted supports your original contention it only attacks the opposing view. That's fine and all but offer some proof that smokers significantly cost tax payers more.

We're still waiting.
Go to the second link, look at the comments and click on the little superscripts that have references for their claims, which will provide you with a multitude of previous studies that estimate the costs of smoking that support my contention.

Holy shit man, you accuse me of "idiotic" shit, and yet you need to be spoon-fed results from studies. The second link I posted has it all. I'm not going to extract and analyze the data for you.

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Old 04-11-2013, 04:03 PM   #143
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I don't think this tax itself will prevent young people from smoking. Mainly because I don't think young people have a good enough grasp or even care about their finances and taxes. Any associated decrease in smoking is much more likely a result of the increased knowledge of the side effects. Also, as more adults who chose not smoke grow older and have kids, they promote in them not to smoke and so on and so forth.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:09 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cephalic Trauma View Post
Go to the second link, look at the comments and click on the little superscript that have references for their claims, which will provide you with a multitude of previous studies that estimate the costs of smoking that support my contention.

Holy shit man, you accuse me of "idiotic" shit, and yet you need to be spoon-fed results from studies. The second link I posted has it all. I'm not going to extract and analyze the data for you.
Yes, studies like the one that states this...

Quote:
The authors' results could also change if the health care costs for expensive, nonfatal smoking-related injuries (e.g., back strains and orthopedic injuries)3,4 were included.
SERIOUS THINKING!

Ok on to your MULTITUDE of studies...

There is ONE actual study that is cited in all of that garbage and it's the bullshit study by Hodgson from 1992(21 years ago, in case your math is as bad as your logic skills). In that study he creatively "discounts" lifetime expenditures for people who live longer. because we all know that health care costs couldn't possibly rise faster than the rate of inflation! Read the "study" it's only 45 pages long and is full of holes. Is this what you want to use to defend you position or would you like to search for something with less obvious holes and more recent data?

BTW the study also admits that it doesn't account for factors that go hand in hand with smoking... like alcohol consumption or income or other lifestyle choices. THAT alone makes a huge difference since we know smokers tend to be poorer, drink more and eat a higher percentage of junk/fast food. ALSO the study addresses overall medical costs... NOT tax payer costs. (It is touched on but not gone into any significant detail) So, yet again you have failed to show a study showing significant TAX PAYER cost increases.

Last edited by AustinChief; 04-11-2013 at 04:23 PM..
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:53 PM   #145
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And yet, behavior is an outward manifestation of the way we are wired. Therefore, yes, gay can be considered a physical trait.
With that logic most behaviors can then be considered physical traits.
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:04 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by WoodDraw View Post
Taxation is a system of choices. I don't drive that much (if ever), but I have to pay for everyone else to have a functional road system. And god forbid we talk about publicly financing other transit options.

Now I'd love to have a higher gas tax, and more toll roads. But as a society, we've made a choice to say I'm wrong. So I can piss and moan about that, or I can just get over it.
I understand your point, but everybody benefits from roads whether you drive or not, because everything in your house came off the back of a truck.
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:14 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by WoodDraw View Post
Taxation is a system of choices. I don't drive that much (if ever), but I have to pay for everyone else to have a functional road system. And god forbid we talk about publicly financing other transit options.

Now I'd love to have a higher gas tax, and more toll roads. But as a society, we've made a choice to say I'm wrong. So I can piss and moan about that, or I can just get over it.
Move to DFW. We have plenty of toll roads.
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:18 PM   #148
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Move to DFW. We have plenty of toll roads.
I was never for toll roads due to the massive inconvenience factor in the past... but today's toll roads in Texas kick all sorts of ass. The North Tarrant Express is a perfect example of what a toll road should be. (Assuming it all goes according to plan)
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:19 PM   #149
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I understand your point, but everybody benefits from roads whether you drive or not, because everything in your house came off the back of a truck.
Sure, and that's a fair point. The question is how do we balance the global benefit along with the actual users. The reality is that it's much easier to raise sales taxes than gas taxes.


My point was more that I don't think that saying the tax per cigarette doesn't match the cost of smokers on our society is a good argument. There are a lot of things in life where the taxes don't match the cost. Whether that's right or wrong, I don't know. We all make those choices. Some we subsidize, others we "over" tax.
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:26 PM   #150
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Sure, and that's a fair point. The question is how do we balance the global benefit along with the actual users. The reality is that it's much easier to raise sales taxes than gas taxes.


My point was more that I don't think that saying the tax per cigarette doesn't match the cost of smokers on our society is a good argument. There are a lot of things in life where the taxes don't match the cost. Whether that's right or wrong, I don't know. We all make those choices. Some we subsidize, others we "over" tax.
I agree with you EXCEPT I take serious umbrage when the false argument is made that the tax is ok because it is supposed to defray these mythically higher economic burdens caused by smokers. At least be honest and say "we're taxing cigs because .. well... **** you, we're taxing cigs!" It is kind of ridiculous when you are looking at a tax that amounts to well over 100% of the cost of the item.
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