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Old 04-22-2013, 08:38 AM  
3rd&48ers 3rd&48ers is offline
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Mass. Police: Bomb Suspects Didn't Have Gun Permit

Mass. Police: Bomb Suspects Didn't Have Gun Permit

A Massachusetts police official say the brothers suspected of bombing the Boston Marathon before having shootouts with authorities didn't have gun permits.

Cambridge Police Commissioner Robert Haas tells The Associated Press in an interview Sunday that neither Tamerlan Tsarnaev (tsahr-NEYE'-ehv) nor his brother Dzhokhar had permission to carry firearms.

He says it's unclear whether either ever applied and the applications aren't considered public records.

But he says the 19-year-old Dzhokhar (joh-KHAR') would have been denied a permit because of his age. Only people 21 or older are allowed gun licenses in Massachusetts.

The suspects were also accused of hijacking a Mercedes on Thursday night.

Haas says the pair didn't release the driver, but he escaped when he was left alone while the two men entered a convenience store.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/m...0#.UXVLIbXFWSo
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Old 04-23-2013, 07:56 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by RaiderH8r View Post
One could argue that the Internet wasn't something the framers envisioned. That the spoken word traveled more slowly and deliberately in their time. The advent of rapid, global communication has yielded dangerous results. The words that were carried to Tamerlan were carried to him over a medium that was never a possibility when the framers developed the first amendment. Therefor speech, particularly over the Internet, and its content should be regulated and closely monitored with punishments put in place for speech deemed subversive, dangerous, and deemed a threat to engender extremism that could result in a threat to American lives.

One could argue that. And one would be a ****ing idiot yet that is essentially the logical box gun grabbers have jumped into.
The gun control debate as a whole has a tendency to get mired down in false equivalences. The most popular seems to be the ol' "But what about cars, cars kill more people than guns, why don't we outlaw cars?", but this qualifies, too. A prime example of non-equivalency in the quoted text is that the hypothetical dangerous speech itself existed in 1787 as much as it exists now; regardless of the speed and method of delivery, it's still the same potentially dangerous item. In order for your comparison to work more accurately - not accurately, mind you, just closer to accurately - you would have to imagine that the speech they had in the 18th century was upgraded now to X-Men-style mind control, because that's the kind of jump that there has been in firearms technology between then and now.

Remember that when the authors of the Constitution wrote "to keep and bear arms", there were no weapons capable of more than one shot at a time, and the pinnacle of military technology at the time was rifling. Therefore - according to the Supreme Court's reigning originalist, Antonin Scalia - the idea is to draw the line ourselves at where the equivalent line would have been in 1787, given their technology and culture at the time. Only the farthest of extremists suggest with any level of seriousness that we should either allow or disallow absolutely all firearms, but our argument lies in the spectrum between. There are plenty of arguments and mountains of evidence for each stance on each nuance without muddying the waters, again, with yet another logical fallacy that sends us spinning off into some tempest in a teacup that has very little to do with the issue we're actually trying to work through.

TLR, False equivalencies are false. Stay focused.
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Old 04-23-2013, 07:58 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade View Post
Once again, speak to the NRA lobbyists, they're not interested in seeing them enforced.
Truly stupid.
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:04 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by seaofred View Post
If it proves anything, it proves that no matter what laws you pass, criminals are still going to break them and get the guns and magazine's they want.
Using tragedies as examples either way seems the wrong approach. Personally, if there are going to continue to be places where it is legal to sell to terrorists or criminals you might as well have no laws. Will criminals and terrorists still be able to find weapons illegally? Absolutely, but why give them legal avenues?
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:12 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by rockymtnchief View Post
This, and your previous post, basically blow a huge hole in the "The NRA does now want current gun laws enforced argument."
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:15 PM   #110
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Seems strange to me that our government will give money and weapons, unavailable to US citizens, to peoples of other lands to overthrow governments while at the same time wanting to eliminate weapons choices in its own county. Perhaps they should take the first step in gun control themselves. $250 million to Syrian rebels approved just last week.
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:15 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by RaiderH8r View Post
In a nation of over 350 million.

Suicides? Really? You're asserting that an individual in the darkest deepest depressive state would conclude they want to off themselves and say, "Well **** this if I don't have a gun"

Yeah, those folks don't have anything going on that would lend itself to their death. The gun was the problem.
It actually is. Availability of a firearm drastically increases the chance that someone who is depressed will kill themselves, because they only take an instant.
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:17 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by seaofred View Post
If it proves anything, it proves that no matter what laws you pass, criminals are still going to break them and get the guns and magazine's they want.
This
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:20 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Aries Walker View Post

Remember that when the authors of the Constitution wrote "to keep and bear arms", there were no weapons capable of more than one shot at a time, and the pinnacle of military technology at the time was rifling.
And I've heard that argument before. It still doesn't hold water with me, personally. It's hard to prevent tyranny when your government has full auto weapons and we're stuck with lead and powder weapons. What's to keep them from taking EVERY right from us?

Also...

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Old 04-23-2013, 08:23 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Aries Walker View Post
It actually is. Availability of a firearm drastically increases the chance that someone who is depressed will kill themselves, because they only take an instant.
I don't know if it "increases" it. Other countries have higher suicide rates than us while having far less firearms. I will agree that it makes it easier though.
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:32 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade View Post
Because the NRA has effectively hamstrung the enforcement of "these rules". Everybody likes to talk about "enforcing the rules on the books", but nobody talks about the lobbyist effort to make departments like the ATF toothless in pursuing them.
Obama is owned and ran by the NRA?


http://p.washingtontimes.com/news/20...-man-weapon-c/
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:35 PM   #116
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Make it out to "Killing U.S. Citizens Is Our Job!"

And just as I was wallowing in depression from not being able to continue my crusade against Frankie.......



Link?
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:36 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade View Post
"well regulated militias" are.

I didn't bring the automobile false equivalency into the debate.
Did you notice the commas and the part that said "shall not be infringed"? How bout that pesky "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms"
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Old 04-24-2013, 09:02 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Aries Walker View Post
The gun control debate as a whole has a tendency to get mired down in false equivalences. The most popular seems to be the ol' "But what about cars, cars kill more people than guns, why don't we outlaw cars?", but this qualifies, too. A prime example of non-equivalency in the quoted text is that the hypothetical dangerous speech itself existed in 1787 as much as it exists now; regardless of the speed and method of delivery, it's still the same potentially dangerous item. In order for your comparison to work more accurately - not accurately, mind you, just closer to accurately - you would have to imagine that the speech they had in the 18th century was upgraded now to X-Men-style mind control, because that's the kind of jump that there has been in firearms technology between then and now.

Remember that when the authors of the Constitution wrote "to keep and bear arms", there were no weapons capable of more than one shot at a time, and the pinnacle of military technology at the time was rifling. Therefore - according to the Supreme Court's reigning originalist, Antonin Scalia - the idea is to draw the line ourselves at where the equivalent line would have been in 1787, given their technology and culture at the time. Only the farthest of extremists suggest with any level of seriousness that we should either allow or disallow absolutely all firearms, but our argument lies in the spectrum between. There are plenty of arguments and mountains of evidence for each stance on each nuance without muddying the waters, again, with yet another logical fallacy that sends us spinning off into some tempest in a teacup that has very little to do with the issue we're actually trying to work through.

TLR, False equivalencies are false. Stay focused.
It should also be remembered that when the 2nd Amendment was written the founders were less than 20 years removed from the invention of the primer fired brass cartridge, which lead to the first repeating rifle. Being men of modern science and technology it’s not hard to assume they knew where weapon technology was headed and the implications of it.

Edit: pardon me I misspoke, was drawing from memory.
The precussion cap, a.k.a. primer, was patented in 1807 and the first pin fired cartridge quickly followed in 1808. The inventor, Jean Samuel Pauly, made some improvements and patented his invention in 1812 but his pin fired cartridge was made of paper with a copper base. The brass cartridge didn’t follow until 1836.
But I think the point still remains.
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Old 04-24-2013, 09:12 AM   #119
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First of all, it's pointless to argue any of this until we find out where they got their guns. I haven't seen anything saying they weren't allowed to own guns, only that they didn't have the licenses (correct me if I missed something there). I will be very interested to see if any recently-proposed laws would have prevented him from getting the guns he did.


This study, and this other older one, are together known pretty well as the most damning scientific evidence against gun ownership in the home. The NEJM is as impartial as you can get, and so for them to so roundly denounce the practice is pretty hard to ignore.

However, we do have a Second Amendment, so we do have to honor its inclusion in the Constitution as much as we do any other element. We do not, however, have to honor it absolutely; it does have limits already, now we just quibble about where to draw the line.
The Kellerman report, brought to you by the same people that pushed the Brady Bill and Assault Weapons Ban with the idea that a gun in the house means there is a higher chance that someone will be killed in that house and that gun ownership wasn’t a deterrent to crime.
Some of the problems with the Kellerman report include only counted self-defense with a gun when it resulted in a death and underreporting gun ownership. They didn’t use national reported averages for the time and instead used “proxies”, a.k.a. neighbors and family, to determine whether there was a gun in the house. Had they used the national averages for the time they would’ve found that a home is less likely to have a homicide committed in it but that wouldn’t fit the “not a deterrent” talking point.
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:43 PM   #120
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Back to the original topic....this story has been showing up since yesterday...

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/04/2...-needed-a-gun/

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“The original question is they walked up to that car and appeared they shot the officer in the head unprovoked, that it was an assassination. But why? How did that fit into their plan? The operating theory now in the investigation is they were short one gun. The older brother had a gun. They wanted to get a gun for the younger brother and the fastest and most efficient way they could think of doing it was a surprise attack on a cop, to take his weapon and go. Officer Collier had a locking holster, it’s like a three-way lock. If you don’t know how to remove the gun, you’re not going to get it out. There was apparently an attempt to yank it and they couldn’t get it and left. “
Now what strikes me as weird about this is...if the brothers only had one gun(and a BB gun)...who fired the 200+ rounds during the shoot out?
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