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Old 04-23-2013, 09:07 AM  
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Will Dzhokhar get the death penalty?

Massachussetts: outlawed the death penalty in 1982.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital..._Massachusetts

Gov Deval Patrick: Publicly opposes the death penalty. http://www.ontheissues.org/Deval_Patrick.htm

Most Americans prefer life imprisonment to death if given the choice:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90348&page=1


Therefore there can be no doubt that the bomber will be kept in prison rather than executed. No way a liberal state will be able to oppose the death penalty (esp when they made it state law)..... and then turn around to execute the bomber. Must be consistent.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:11 PM   #46
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Another reason why some don't like the death penalty is the drawn out process that goes with it that is needed to ensure they don't wrongfully execute someone. There was at least one injured victim from the Aurora shooting that said he hoped they wouldn't pursue death because it would take longer and thus postpone closure, the "healing process."
I am really surprised that they are pursuing death in that case. He seems to be genuinely crazy and I thought that was a strong mitigating factor. I think the prosecutor turned down a plea for life without parole.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:13 PM   #47
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I think most people that are against the death penalty hold that position for one of several reasons:

1. it's morally reprehensible for the state to cause death. How can the state say killing is bad when it is itself killing people. THIS is the position that YOU are referring to. I think, actually, that most people who are against the death penalty are not against it for this reason. Typically you find, for example, devout Catholics and the like holding this position.

2. The death penalty is bad because sometimes innocents are convicted, and you cant' undo death.

3. The death penalty is bad because human bias typically results in uneven, unfair and therefore Constitutionally unacceptable unequal application. Studies have supported this (more blacks get the death penalty when killing whites than vice versa, etc. etc.).


I think MOST people who are against the death penalty in principle are against it for the latter two reasons.

Here, you've got a pretty blatant "yeah, this guy needs to die by needle", and only those who are in category 1 are going to give a damn.
"Morally reprehensible" for the state to cause death? Are you ****ing kidding me? I wonder how many millions of innocents have died in the name of United States of America over the centuries. Personally, I think it's morally reprehensible to keep these ****ing vermin alive, and even more morlally reprehensible that MY TAX DOLLARS ****ING PAY FOR IT.

As for can't undo death part, you also can't undo people getting set free who are guilty as hell because there wasn't enough evidence to convict them or because their prosecutors sucked or the defense team was masterful, so I call that a wash.

And we are awash in criminal scum right now. Our prisons are overcrowded, or streets are overrun, our criminal justice system is a sick, pathetic joke. Apparently you just want to pat these turds on the head and say hey, don't gun down any more honor students, that's not nice. Oh, and no more guns, K?

We should be hanging these mother****ers 100 at a time out in front of God and everybody.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:21 PM   #48
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I think the best argument regards mitigating circumstances that his lawyers could make would be that he is only a year or two older than the minimum age for the death penalty and he has been smoking weed regularly since before he was death penalty eligible until a short time ago.

If the argument for a minimum age for the death penalty is that the mind is not fully developed for full culpability, then the fact that affected his developing mind and made him more likely to become overly religious and unduly influenced by his brother. The paranoia that comes with dope smoking can make a susceptible person think that he or his religion has all of the answers.
Yeesh. If this Twinkie defense is the best anyone can come up with, then he's pretty well ****ed. And yes, in fact, that may well be the best anyone can come up with and he probably is ****ed. I certainly hope he is at any rate...

(I do note that you basically say so yourself in your subsequent paragraphs).
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:22 PM   #49
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I am really surprised that they are pursuing death in that case. He seems to be genuinely crazy and I thought that was a strong mitigating factor. I think the prosecutor turned down a plea for life without parole.
I'm so glad they are. He's not crazy. He's just an asshole.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:25 PM   #50
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"Morally reprehensible" for the state to cause death? Are you ****ing kidding me? I wonder how many millions of innocents have died in the name of United States of America over the centuries. Personally, I think it's morally reprehensible to keep these ****ing vermin alive, and even more morlally reprehensible that MY TAX DOLLARS ****ING PAY FOR IT.

As for can't undo death part, you also can't undo people getting set free who are guilty as hell because there wasn't enough evidence to convict them or because their prosecutors sucked or the defense team was masterful, so I call that a wash.

And we are awash in criminal scum right now. Our prisons are overcrowded, or streets are overrun, our criminal justice system is a sick, pathetic joke. Apparently you just want to pat these turds on the head and say hey, don't gun down any more honor students, that's not nice. Oh, and no more guns, K?

We should be hanging these mother****ers 100 at a time out in front of God and everybody.

I note that I'm not anti-death penalty. Even 15-20 years ago, when I was much more liberal than I am now, I was at best wishy-washy on it. Now I'm definitely pro death.

Note that England had something like 100 separate death penalty offenses back about 100 years ago and it didn't dramatically deter crime. The simple fact is that the death penalty isn't really all that great a deterrent. No criminal really says to themselves "welp, if I do this crime then I'd get life in jail without parole so that's ok, but this other crime over here is death penalty and no way, **** that!!"

It's just not really a thought process that criminals seem to go through. They all tend to assume they won't get caught anyway, so the punishment doesn't really matter much in terms of deterrence, with ONE exception -- prisoners already in jail for life. A prisoner facing multiple life sentences is harder to control since you can't really do anything more to him. In a death penalty state, however....
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:30 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
I note that I'm not anti-death penalty. Even 15-20 years ago, when I was much more liberal than I am now, I was at best wishy-washy on it. Now I'm definitely pro death.

Note that England had something like 100 separate death penalty offenses back about 100 years ago and it didn't dramatically deter crime. The simple fact is that the death penalty isn't really all that great a deterrent. No criminal really says to themselves "welp, if I do this crime then I'd get life in jail without parole so that's ok, but this other crime over here is death penalty and no way, **** that!!"

It's just not really a thought process that criminals seem to go through. They all tend to assume they won't get caught anyway, so the punishment doesn't really matter much in terms of deterrence, with ONE exception -- prisoners already in jail for life. A prisoner facing multiple life sentences is harder to control since you can't really do anything more to him. In a death penalty state, however....
How many executed criminals commit new crimes?
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:36 PM   #52
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How many executed criminals commit new crimes?

Slightly fewer than criminals that are serving life sentences with no possibility of parole.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:37 PM   #53
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But most folks will cheer the sentence I have no doubt. If you have some weird notion that Massachusetts is 100% granola crunching earthy liberal whackos, then let me help -- you're wrong. Very wrong.

Yeah, whatever could've given me that idea? Where would I get the notion that MA was a very liberal state?
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:39 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
I think most people that are against the death penalty hold that position for one of several reasons:

1. it's morally reprehensible for the state to cause death. How can the state say killing is bad when it is itself killing people. THIS is the position that YOU are referring to. I think, actually, that most people who are against the death penalty are not against it for this reason. Typically you find, for example, devout Catholics and the like holding this position.

2. The death penalty is bad because sometimes innocents are convicted, and you cant' undo death.

3. The death penalty is bad because human bias typically results in uneven, unfair and therefore Constitutionally unacceptable unequal application. Studies have supported this (more blacks get the death penalty when killing whites than vice versa, etc. etc.).


I think MOST people who are against the death penalty in principle are against it for the latter two reasons.

Here, you've got a pretty blatant "yeah, this guy needs to die by needle", and only those who are in category 1 are going to give a damn.

No way. NOOOOOO way. Vast majority of Libs absoutely are opposed to it under any circumstance, hence #1 is the clear runaway reason for it. You really think Stephanie Cutter or Rachel Maddow would agree to executions for anyone who confesses? No effin way.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:39 PM   #55
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Yeah, whatever could've given me that idea? Where would I get the notion that MA was a very liberal state?
It is liberal, but you're painting this picture that the whole state is like Cambridge, which is ridiculous.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:41 PM   #56
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No way. NOOOOOO way. Vast majority of Libs absoutely are opposed to it under any circumstance, hence #1 is the clear runaway reason for it. You really think Stephanie Cutter or Rachel Maddow would agree to executions for anyone who confesses? No effin way.
I said "most people that are against the death penalty" and then you convert that to most libs.

Not everyone against the death penalty is some kind of far left wing liberal. You're probably right that the far left wing liberals are against the death penalty all the time for reason #1. But there are many, and I would suggest a majority of those who are against the death penalty in principle, who are against it for reasons 2 and 3.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:42 PM   #57
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It is liberal, but you're painting this picture that the whole state is like Cambridge, which is ridiculous.
The state banned the death penalty 30 years ago. The state routinely scores at or near the top in Liberal ID. Come on, let's move past obvious facts and get back to the topic: many of them say they're against the DP but in fact will want it for this guy. I know you see the point.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:47 PM   #58
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The state banned the death penalty 30 years ago. The state routinely scores at or near the top in Liberal ID. Come on, let's move past obvious facts and get back to the topic: many of them say they're against the DP but in fact will want it for this guy. I know you see the point.

errr...yeah, I agree with all that. You point seems to be that this makes Massachusetts somehow hypocritical I guess, but that's silly and incorrect, but whatever makes you happy.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:57 PM   #59
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Slightly fewer than criminals that are serving life sentences with no possibility of parole.
And how much does it cost us to keep these ****ing turds alive in jail for decades, for basically no good reason whatsoever?

Hey, Freddie murdered his entire family back in 1975, confessed to the crime, was caught playing with their severed heads, but he's got cancer now, so by God, call in a specialist!
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Old 04-23-2013, 04:00 PM   #60
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