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Old 05-03-2013, 05:31 PM  
Comrade Crapski Comrade Crapski is offline
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Keep Stone Mountain carving a Confederate Memorial

A young man asked me why do they want to change the carving at Stone Mountain Park?



The question should also be why do some people continue to try erasing history? There is a petition drive to change the beautiful historic carving at Stone Mountain Memorial Park near Atlanta, Georgia? See news story from 11 Alive of Atlanta, Georgia including their interview with me. A special thank you to Mr. Dan Coleman who participated in the debate that followed.

Read what I said including, “Like previous campaigns criticizing other Confederate Memorials, he sees the petition to remove the carving of Jefferson, Lee and Jackson as an attack on the truth.”

A online poll currently shows 95 percent of the people want to keep the Stone Mountain Carving of our heroes Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson as it is.

Let me caution you with this poll that we also won most of the polls for the 1956 Georgia “Soldier’s Memorial flag” our official State flag of Georgia conceived by Judge John Sammons Bells that was unceremoniously taken down in 2001. They did not listen to the people of Georgia back then.

Mississippian’s however, were allowed to vote on their 1890s State flag, that also includes the Confederate Battle flag in the design, and they chose to keep it. Georgian’s were allowed to vote on a State flag but their 1956 flag with the Confederate flag it its design, was excluded in the vote. Democracy was at work in Mississippi but not Georgia.

Stone Mountain has been filmed many times including in the 1954 movie “A Man called Peter” starring Richard Todd as Reverend Peter Marshall and Jean Peters as his wife.

Take the time to learn about the South’s President Jefferson Davis, Gen. Robert E. Lee and Gen. Stonewall Jackson who died 150 years ago on May 10, 1863 and share with your family.

Jefferson and wife Varina Davis adopted a Black child, Jim Limber Davis, in February 1864 and…

Booker T. Washington, America’s great Black-American Educator wrote in 1910, ‘The first white people in America, certainly the first in the South to exhibit their interest in the reaching of the Negro and saving his soul through the medium of the Sunday-school were Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson.”

Let’s not erase history!


http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/54938


A native of Georgia, Calvin Johnson, Chairman of the National and Georgia Division, Sons of Confederate Veterans, Confederate History Month Committee—-Scv.org lives near the historic town of Kennesaw and he’s a member of the Chattahoochee Guards Camp, Sons of Confederate Veterans. He is the author of the book “When America Stood for God, Family and Country.” Calvin can be reached at: cjohnson1861@bellsouth.net

Last edited by Comrade Crapski; 05-07-2013 at 08:56 AM..
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Old 05-05-2013, 04:28 PM   #136
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post

To make the case even more concrete, we find the following explanation of IV:4 by James Madison in the Records of the Federal Convention, where Madison specified that state application was necessary before the federal government could intervene to protect a state against "internal commotion":
2. The guarantee [of IV:4] is

1. to prevent the establishment of any government, not republican

3. to protect each state against internal commotion: and

2. against external invasion.

4. But this guarantee shall not operate in the last Case without an application from the legislature of a state. (Records of the Federal Convention, 2:182, 188; Madison, 6 Aug. 1787)
Reposted link:
http://michaelgriffith1.tripod.com/voluntary.htm

James Madison never supported secession. Your lying has no shame. You'll just pull anything out of the air to try to support you fanatical fringe revisionism. All you have are Lies.

"James Madison in his old age lived through the Nullification Crisis of 1832-1833. He was against nullification and secession, which he saw lurking clearly in the background of the Crisis. As the author of the Virginia Resolution of 1798 which contended that Congress had no power to pass the Alien and Sedition Acts, Madison had his own words thrown back at him, and he took pains in his letters to explain the differences between his Virginia Resolution and the revolution South Carolina was attempting to initiate. I find his words on secession to be of great interest in light of the battle over the right to secede fought after Madison was long in his grave. Here is a letter to Nicholas Trist on December 23, 1832 in which Madison makes his position clear."

Read the Letter at: http://almostchosenpeople.wordpress....-on-secession/
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Old 05-05-2013, 04:32 PM   #137
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Financing The Confederacy

Confederate Secretary of the Treasury Christopher G. Memminger assumed his duties in February 1861 by floating government loans and creating an instant national debt. In 1861 the Confederacy sold bonds worth $150 million in the so-called Bankers Loan, which secured much-needed specie. The government also tapped agricultural staples through the Produce Loan, in which planters pledged their produce in exchange for government paper. Against the receipts of these loans, Memminger issued Treasury notes, circulating paper money with which the government paid its bills. In August, 1861 the Confederate Congress passed a War Tax on various kinds of property to increase government resources. Unfortunately Memminger's department was inefficient in collecting the produce subscribed to the Produce Loan, and he allowed taxes to be paid in inflated state currency. Consequently government paper money fed inflation, which served as an inverse tax on Confederate citizens.
By 1863 Memminger realized that inflation was threatening the government's ability to support itself and the war. Accordingly he proposed and Congress passed a graduated Income Tax and a 10% Tax In Kind on agricultural products. In March, 1863 the Confederacy accepted a $15 million loan from the French banking house of Emile Erlanger that yielded much less than its face value (about $8.5 million), but given the tenuous nature of Southern nationhood, the Confederates made the best deal possible. Still, Memminger's printing presses moved faster than the government could collect revenue, and inflation accelerated. In desperation, in 1864 Memminger imposed a Compulsory Funding Measure, which devalued those Treasury notes not exchanged for noncirculating government bonds. This failed too, as Confederates continued to exchange government paper for goods and services.
In July 1864 Jefferson Davis replaced Memminger with another South Carolinian, George A. Trenholm, but there was little Trenholm could do. The Confederacy never had more than $27 million of specie. The national debt ran over $700 million and the overall inflation was about 6,000%. That the Confederacy persisted as long as it did amid this financial chaos was a wonder.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/confederatefinance.htm
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Old 05-05-2013, 04:43 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
Secession has been decided doofus. Don't get mad at me for it.
OK, I won't. Don't get mad at me for pointing out how poor your grasp of constitutional concepts is.
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Old 05-05-2013, 04:53 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
James Madison never supported secession. Your lying has no shame. You'll just pull anything out of the air to try to support you fanatical fringe revisionism. All you have are Lies.

"James Madison in his old age lived through the Nullification Crisis of 1832-1833. He was against nullification and secession, which he saw lurking clearly in the background of the Crisis. As the author of the Virginia Resolution of 1798 which contended that Congress had no power to pass the Alien and Sedition Acts, Madison had his own words thrown back at him, and he took pains in his letters to explain the differences between his Virginia Resolution and the revolution South Carolina was attempting to initiate. I find his words on secession to be of great interest in light of the battle over the right to secede fought after Madison was long in his grave. Here is a letter to Nicholas Trist on December 23, 1832 in which Madison makes his position clear."

Read the Letter at: http://almostchosenpeople.wordpress....-on-secession/


She is shameless no doubt. Nobody "nullifies" the Supreme Court, not sure where she pulled that one out. Maybe it was in a novel she read.
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Old 05-05-2013, 04:56 PM   #140
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You ever notice that you can't say Robert Lee it has to be Robert E. Lee when referring to the late great general?
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Old 05-05-2013, 05:17 PM   #141
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Here's another fact:

Some 300 opposition newspapers in the North were shut down by Lincoln. Some journalists and even congressmen were jailed for being opposed to his war.

This is the context that loneiguana uses to claim Lincoln's war was valid and supported.
One of the single most talked about case is Copperhead Clement Vallandigham, of Ohio. :

"Vallandigham continued his public criticism of the war effort. In May 1863, he was arrested for violating General Ambrose Burnside’s General Order No. 38, which subjected persons expressing sympathy for the enemy to possible imprisonment. Vallandigham’s conviction by a military tribunal was upheld by President Lincoln, but the prison term was put aside and the war critic was banished to the Confederacy.

Vallandigham remained only a short time in the South before heading to Canada by way of Bermuda. He reentered the United States in disguise from Windsor, Ontario, in June 1864. When learning of his return, Federal officials ignored him."

From: http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h790.html

/some tyrant

In fact, the majority of these cases never made it to trail, most of people were released after taking an oath of loyalty. This was very popular in MO, with the shifting partisan warfare within the state. Moreover, the majority of arrests took place in occupied Confederate territory or border states, where the line between dissent and treason was murky.

Another example of BEP distorting history. BEP never gives context or explanation to the fringe insight.
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Old 05-05-2013, 05:19 PM   #142
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Visited here today... It's very "confederate-y"... You totally get that "the south will rise again" vibe here as you drive down Jefferson Davis Drive and Stonewall Jackson Road.
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:11 PM   #143
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
She is shameless no doubt. Nobody "nullifies" the Supreme Court, not sure where she pulled that one out. Maybe it was in a novel she read.
No but states have and do nullify federal laws. Real ID is one.

And of course, any state is free to leave. That is if it's really a free country.
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:13 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
James Madison never supported secession. Your lying has no shame. You'll just pull anything out of the air to try to support you fanatical fringe revisionism. All you have are Lies.

"James Madison in his old age lived through the Nullification Crisis of 1832-1833. He was against nullification and secession, which he saw lurking clearly in the background of the Crisis. As the author of the Virginia Resolution of 1798 which contended that Congress had no power to pass the Alien and Sedition Acts, Madison had his own words thrown back at him, and he took pains in his letters to explain the differences between his Virginia Resolution and the revolution South Carolina was attempting to initiate. I find his words on secession to be of great interest in light of the battle over the right to secede fought after Madison was long in his grave. Here is a letter to Nicholas Trist on December 23, 1832 in which Madison makes his position clear."

Read the Letter at: http://almostchosenpeople.wordpress....-on-secession/
Nope. Madison was against the use of force on a seceding state. Lincoln had no right to invade any state.

Explanation of IV:4 by James Madison in the Records of the Federal Convention, where Madison specified that state application was necessary before the federal government could intervene to protect a state against "internal commotion":

2. The guarantee [of IV:4] is
1. to prevent the establishment of any government, not republican

3. to protect each state against internal commotion: and

2. against external invasion.

4. But this guarantee shall not operate in the last Case without an application from the legislature of a state. (Records of the Federal Convention, 2:182, 188; Madison, 6 Aug. 1787)

The "last case" is item 3, "to protect each state against internal commotion" (which was Madison's alternative term for "domestic violence"), although the list is out of order (2 and 3 are in reverse order). So Madison said this could not be done "without an application from the legislature" of the state.

The Southern states still had republican forms of government and had not requested federal intervention, despite Abe's bizarre claims they were still part of the Union. The Southern states had no desire to overthrow the federal government—they wanted to leave and be left alone.

http://www.mtgriffith.com/web_documents/voluntary.htm
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:28 PM   #145
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From loneiguana's link on Madison:
"The fallacy which draws a different conclusion from them lies in confounding a single party, with the parties to the Constitutional compact of the United States. The latter having made the compact may do what they will with it. The former as one only of the parties, owes fidelity to it, till released by consent, or absolved by an intolerable abuse of the power created."

Sounds like a Declaration of Independence reference here.
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:34 PM   #146
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The power and independent authority of the states were essential elements in the mixed, balanced government formed in 1787.

The respect for them extended even to non-coercion. In the Convention that framed the Constitution it was proposed to give the government power to call out the army to force a wayward state to fulfill its duty.

Madison said:

"The more he reflected on the use of force the more he doubted the practicability, the justice and efficacy of it when applied the people collectively and not individually. -- A union of the States containing such an ingredient seemed to provide for its own destruction. The use of force against a State would look more like a declaration of war than an infliction of punishment, and would probably be considered by the party attacked as a dissolution of all previous compacts by which it might be bound."

A little-known fact of the Constitution is that two of the largest states -- Virginia and New York -- made the right to withdraw from the union explicit in their acceptance of the Constitution. And in such an agreement between parties as is represented by the Constitution, a right claimed by one is allowed to all.

http://www.etymonline.com/cw/secession2.htm
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:40 PM   #147
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"Secession is a deeply American principle. This country was born through secession."~ Ron Paul
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:48 PM   #148
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"If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union . . . let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left to combat it."~ Thomas Jefferson

"God bless them both, & keep them in the union if it be for their good, but separate them, if it be better."~ Thomas Jefferson, August 12, 1803 letter to John C. Breckenridge on the New England secession

"If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation . . . to a continuance in the union," then "I have no hesitation in saying, ‘let us separate’" ~ June 20, 1816, Jefferson letter to Mr. W. Crawford (The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, vol. 15, p. 27).
John Quincy Adams believed that if a state or states wanted to secede, then "a more perfect Union" could be formed "by dissolving that which could no longer bind . . ." (John Quincy Adams, The Jubilee of the Constitution, p. 66). In Democracy in America (p. 381)
"To coerce the States [to remain in the Union] is one of the maddest projects that was ever devised" and thought of "a government that can only exist by the sword," with "Congress marching the troops of one State into the bosom of another" a moral abomination (Jonathan Elliot’s Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, p. 232).~ Alexander Hamilton [ Okay, he was different when seeking ratification. ]
"The Union was formed by the voluntary agreement of the States; and in uniting together they have not forfeited their nationality . . . . If one of he states chooses to withdraw from the compact, it would be difficult to disprove its right of doing so, and the Federal Government would have no means of maintaining its claims directly either by force or right."~ Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

The American Tradition of Secession
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:00 PM   #149
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Four Significant Secession Movements in America
From same link above.

I.The First Secession
America's secession from Great Britain

II.The Second Secession Movement
New England Federalists who by 1814 at the Hartford Secession Convention, decided to remain.
All during this 14 year ordeal they considered the Union voluntary though.

III.The Secession Movement in the Middle Atlantic States
New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, and Maryland.
On the eve of the War to Prevent Southern Independence leading opinion makers in these states advocated either allowing the Southern states to secede in peace; seceding and joining the Southern Confederacy; or seceding to form a separate nation comprised of the Middle Atlantic states.

IV. Southern Secession Movement
Belief that the American union was voluntary and that it would be a war crime and a moral abomination for the federal government to force any state to remain in the union was strong throughout America on the eve of the war.

Northern Editorials on Secession edited by Howard C. Perkins, describes how the majority of Northern newspapers advocated peaceful secession of the Southern states in 1860-61:

Bangor Daily Union editorialized on November 13, 1860 that
"The Union depends for its continuance on the free consent and will of the sovereign people of each state, and when that consent and will is withdrawn on either part, their Union is gone."

The New York Journal of Commerce condemned "the meddlesome spirit" of Northern "Yankees" who "seek to regulate and control people in other communities."

The New York Tribune wrote on December 17, 1860 that "If tyranny and despotism justified the Revolution of 1776, then we do not see why it would not justify the secession of Five Millions of Southrons from the Federal Union in 1861."

The Kenosha, Wisconsin Democrat editorialized on January 11, 1861 that "Secession is the very germ of liberty . . . the right of secession inheres to the people of every sovereign state."
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:07 PM   #150
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Here class is a great example of how a history hack with an agenda distorts facts for their gain.

With the first example, BEP completely ignores the fact that slavery was constitutional, and Lincoln wished to end slavery through the States. The quote doesn't at all say Lincoln favored slavery, only that Lincoln understood the constitution.

BEP lies about history.
Of course, you alter my argument first, to make it look like you're taking it down when you're not.
Strawman King.

For one, I know slavery was Constitutional. So look who is lying. Project much?

But again, Lincoln didn't fight the war to save the slaves. He also said different things to different groups of people about slavery a la Bill Clinton as a politician. Even historians agree that he said contradictory things about it.
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“Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.” — James Madison
Posts: 55,791
BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.
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