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Old 05-03-2013, 05:31 PM  
Comrade Crapski Comrade Crapski is offline
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Keep Stone Mountain carving a Confederate Memorial

A young man asked me why do they want to change the carving at Stone Mountain Park?



The question should also be why do some people continue to try erasing history? There is a petition drive to change the beautiful historic carving at Stone Mountain Memorial Park near Atlanta, Georgia? See news story from 11 Alive of Atlanta, Georgia including their interview with me. A special thank you to Mr. Dan Coleman who participated in the debate that followed.

Read what I said including, “Like previous campaigns criticizing other Confederate Memorials, he sees the petition to remove the carving of Jefferson, Lee and Jackson as an attack on the truth.”

A online poll currently shows 95 percent of the people want to keep the Stone Mountain Carving of our heroes Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson as it is.

Let me caution you with this poll that we also won most of the polls for the 1956 Georgia “Soldier’s Memorial flag” our official State flag of Georgia conceived by Judge John Sammons Bells that was unceremoniously taken down in 2001. They did not listen to the people of Georgia back then.

Mississippian’s however, were allowed to vote on their 1890s State flag, that also includes the Confederate Battle flag in the design, and they chose to keep it. Georgian’s were allowed to vote on a State flag but their 1956 flag with the Confederate flag it its design, was excluded in the vote. Democracy was at work in Mississippi but not Georgia.

Stone Mountain has been filmed many times including in the 1954 movie “A Man called Peter” starring Richard Todd as Reverend Peter Marshall and Jean Peters as his wife.

Take the time to learn about the South’s President Jefferson Davis, Gen. Robert E. Lee and Gen. Stonewall Jackson who died 150 years ago on May 10, 1863 and share with your family.

Jefferson and wife Varina Davis adopted a Black child, Jim Limber Davis, in February 1864 and…

Booker T. Washington, America’s great Black-American Educator wrote in 1910, ‘The first white people in America, certainly the first in the South to exhibit their interest in the reaching of the Negro and saving his soul through the medium of the Sunday-school were Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson.”

Let’s not erase history!


http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/54938


A native of Georgia, Calvin Johnson, Chairman of the National and Georgia Division, Sons of Confederate Veterans, Confederate History Month Committee—-Scv.org lives near the historic town of Kennesaw and he’s a member of the Chattahoochee Guards Camp, Sons of Confederate Veterans. He is the author of the book “When America Stood for God, Family and Country.” Calvin can be reached at: cjohnson1861@bellsouth.net

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Old 05-04-2013, 01:12 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
I'm glad you cared enough to comment.
I read at least the first parts of most of the posts in the threads in which I participate. I frequently skip much of the longer posts when it's clear to me that it's off topic, uninteresting, or otherwise full of shit. If you can keep it short, there's a good chance I'll read it.
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Old 05-04-2013, 01:12 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I think you don't understand the issue of natural rights and negative rights along with delegated powers.
That's pretty clear.
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Old 05-04-2013, 01:12 PM   #78
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You're losing me with every successive post. No, the Constitution is a LAW. It is a legal document Buc. There is no esoteric stuff about "natural law" in there. The States signed a legally binding contract, and they knew what they were doing. You are not allowed to secede and the LAW says so.



You're trying to re-write history to fit your worldview. A worldview I largely share. But I can't ignore facts sorry. If Texas or New Hampshire wants to leave they must get permission from the US. If they leave without permission they have violated clear contract law.

No, I am not rewriting history to fit my worldview. I used to think like you but changed my mind with new information that added to my education. It's a common misconception passed down through our schools, media and pundits. It simply is not based on fact—as in what the Framers discussed and the understanding of the people of that time and even up to the War for Southern Independence.

It's a contract that primarily restrains the Federal govt. Should the Federal govt abuse it's authority or expand it beyond the words—then there is a right to separate from it. The question here is who is in breach?
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Old 05-04-2013, 01:14 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Well, Lincoln was attacked by the south for using the Declaration of the Independence as an argument against slavery. Guess things come full circle.
Lincoln was just a political opportunist who used what he could to preserve the Union. He didn't even oppose slavery or want to end it.
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Old 05-04-2013, 01:16 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
In your case on this thread, it's ignoring 200 years of generally-agreed facts. Not even Rush Limbaugh would follow the arguments you've put forth on this thread, sorry to say.
I am NOT a Rush Limbaugh fan. I don't consider him a true conservative. He's a NeoConservative.
He is wrong about some things, even if he is right about others.

Same with Marc Levin, who also rewrites the Constitution when it suits him, such as war powers.

This idea of generally-agreed can include false ideas which get accepted. You're using herd mentality to make it correct.
Doesn't fly in my book.

Unfortunately, some big govt ideas have seeped into today's right and have been unquestioned by them. This is one.
Because secession, as is nullification by states of some laws and by juries, are another check and balance on the Feds and govt.

It seems to me, you hail from what would have been the Federalist wing from the old days aka the Hamiltonian/Whig parties
as opposed to the Jeffersonian and later Madison, who changed later throwing his side to the Jefferson wing which was anti-Federalist. I mean even, Revolutionary war hero, Patrick Henry refused to endorse the new Constitution. RI refused to ratify it....while ships were sent to put pressure on them. So much for voluntary consent.
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Old 05-04-2013, 01:55 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
There is nothing in the Constitution barring secession either. It need not have been stated by the Founders since it's a negative rights document and only confers delegated powers specifically enumerated.

I feel almost sorry for you that you're now in the position of imputing "rights' that aren't spelled out. You're now at the level of the Libs who imputed the "right" to privacy in Roe V Wade....the "right" to birthright citizenship in the 14th Amendment....and that the 2nd Amendment really implies "well regulated" to allow gun control. Sad.




Quote:
I think you don't understand the issue of natural rights and negative rights along with delegated powers. If there is no delegated power, specifically enumerated then the feds have no authority to act in that area. As a fellow conservative, I would think you'd understand this idea as it's original intent and strict construction that conservatives claim to adhere to.

You and Patteu are trying to set a land speed record for non-sequitors. There's only 1 topic here: the legality (or lack thereof) for secession. I've explained multiple times that it's not there and all you can do is go on wild goose chases of semi-relevant tangents and guesstimate what the Founders "probably believed deep down inside".


Strict Constructionists read the Constitution as it's written - not how they wish it was.
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Old 05-04-2013, 02:02 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Well, Lincoln was attacked by the south for using the Declaration of the Independence as an argument against slavery. Guess things come full circle.
The Revolutionary War actually taught the Founders about the dangers of being a Confederation of independent states. It forced them to become a Nation. The War was fought all throughout the entire land mass of the Colonies so nobody was spared. Had the war been concentrated around Bunker Hill or Ticonderoga, it's very possible the South would've been less interested in forming the strong central government they agreed to immediately afterwards.


Another interesting fact is that the Colonies only had 2.5million people and 25,000 of them were killed in the war. In today's proportions, that is equivalent to over 3million Americans dying in a War!
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Old 05-04-2013, 02:03 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
I feel almost sorry for you that you're now in the position of imputing "rights' that aren't spelled out. You're now at the level of the Libs who imputed the "right" to privacy in Roe V Wade....the "right" to birthright citizenship in the 14th Amendment....and that the 2nd Amendment really implies "well regulated" to allow gun control. Sad.







You and Patteu are trying to set a land speed record for non-sequitors. There's only 1 topic here: the legality (or lack thereof) for secession. I've explained multiple times that it's not there and all you can do is go on wild goose chases of semi-relevant tangents and guesstimate what the Founders "probably believed deep down inside".


Strict Constructionists read the Constitution as it's written - not how they wish it was.
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Old 05-04-2013, 03:00 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
I feel almost sorry for you that you're now in the position of imputing "rights' that aren't spelled out. You're now at the level of the Libs who imputed the "right" to privacy in Roe V Wade....the "right" to birthright citizenship in the 14th Amendment....and that the 2nd Amendment really implies "well regulated" to allow gun control. Sad.
Nice argumentum ad hominem there by putting me into the dubious category of "Libs".

I have imputed nothing nor am I at the level of "Libs" which is a false label for the Progressive left. They are not classical liberals, which is what our Framers were generally 'cept for the Hamiltonian wing. I am a classical liberal and my argument is based on the Framers discussions at the original Constitutional Convention. You are making an argument for force and violence of govt, what our Founders rebelled against and what the left is all about. Of course this includes the current crop of NeoConservatives and BIG govt conservatives.

Your other claims are also false. I support second Amendment rights having argued that "militia" in the vernacular of the time of the founding meant the "people." I have regularly argued against the expansion of the 14th Amendment's substantive due process and incorporation doctrine as bogus if the Federal govt did not infringe a right. So, I do not support the Roe v Wade decision, nor believe it is valid under the Ninth Amendment, which mentions without listing them other rights being held. This is a fact.

I feel birthright citizenship should be done away with. However, I am not aware of any arguments I made for it either.
I simply feel, an amendment is needed on birthright citizenship. I've also argued for repeal of the 14th, and rewriting it to limit its scope because it was written for the newly freed slaves. Nor for privacy as in abortion or sodomy, when the feds didn't make any law on those things.

You don't understand the concept of natural rights or negative rights which is why you're making such arguments.

I support Federalism and the rights of the states to pass laws including laws on public morality. I support restraint of the Federal govt for a much smaller govt, low taxes and free markets. I support the right to secede from any tyranny or repeat abuses of the Constitution including against the states.

Lincoln's war against the Southern States may have kept the nation together geographically, but he destroyed it philosophically. For it was after that war, that we had an expansion of power at the Federal level and an expansion of the 14th Amendment right up through the 1920s and even longer. If anything the arguments you are making fall under that philosophical destruction. I suspect you are also assuming that, because I support the right of secession, that I prefer to not see the union hold. I actually do prefer it to hold but as a limited form of federal action. I think the southern states would have returned because it would be seen to be in their best interests. But it would also have made the federal govt proceed with caution regarding the sovereignty of the states. They were still supposed to remain mini sovereignties even under the new Constitution.

Quote:
You and Patteu are trying to set a land speed record for non-sequitors.
Seriously, you've got to be kidding here. There are no non-sequiters. You're making this claim is more evidence you do not understand natural rights and a negative rights document. You are unable to duplicate the claim being made is all.

Quote:
There's only 1 topic here: the legality (or lack thereof) for secession. I've explained multiple times that it's not there and all you can do is go on wild goose chases of semi-relevant tangents and guesstimate what the Founders "probably believed deep down inside".
I've provided the evidence that you are wrong about this alleged legality: Language from the original Constitution Convention and the Constitution itself. Just read the Tenth Amendment:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
That's what it says. There are no powers conferred on the Federal govt to use military force to keep any state in the union against its will. It's absence makes that case.

I'll give you another example of a natural right being exercised. Texas leaving Mexico when it became its own republic—then later joined the Union. They did not like how they were being governed by Mexico. By your reasoning, they should have never been allowed to do that and don't belong to the United States. Are you willing to give it back to Mexico?

Quote:
Strict Constructionists read the Constitution as it's written - not how they wish it was.
Asserting this does not make it so. It's your opinion. I say that's what I am doing and it's not what you're doing. In fact, what I am doing is called originalism, as in original intent. You've shown me no passages or any evidence except to assert it as being so, because it's the law. That's authoritarianism. You are being no different than King George the III. Afterall, most didn't fight the revolution either, because it was led and brought on by the few who had a different set of ideas from others.

Sorry, respectfully I disagree. Your claims are for big govt conservatism.
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Old 05-04-2013, 03:20 PM   #85
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I know. I am just blown away by his arguments. Fancy, you and I agreeing here as well.
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Old 05-04-2013, 03:25 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
The Revolutionary War actually taught the Founders about the dangers of being a Confederation of independent states. It forced them to become a Nation. The War was fought all throughout the entire land mass of the Colonies so nobody was spared. Had the war been concentrated around Bunker Hill or Ticonderoga, it's very possible the South would've been less interested in forming the strong central government they agreed to immediately afterwards.


Another interesting fact is that the Colonies only had 2.5million people and 25,000 of them were killed in the war. In today's proportions, that is equivalent to over 3million Americans dying in a War!
This is more evidence that you would have been a Federalist back in the day. Having a central govt that was stronger than the Articles was desired but not to the degree they've become or you seem to think.

Madison's Federalist #45 disagrees with you.
Federalist #45: The Alleged Danger From the Powers of the Union to the State Governments Considered"

"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite."
http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa45.htm

I like the comment in wikipedia on this:

Quote:
A literal interpretation of Federalist No. 45 would indict much of the federal government's activities at that point as unconstitutional.[3] Madison's view is all but unknown among Americans, although that could be said about many or most of the detailed positions presented in the Federalist Papers.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._45
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Old 05-04-2013, 03:29 PM   #87
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Prison Bitch,
Pick up a copy of the fighting between Hamilton and Jefferson and how Hamilton increased the powers of the Federal govt immediately, and against it language. So much so that Madison, who was actually a Federalist during the Convention, threw his side to Jefferson he was so alarmed by Hamilton's actions.

Hamilton's Curse focuses on this exclusively.

http://www.amazon.com/Hamiltons-Curs.../dp/0307382850

Book Description:
Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton were without question two of the most important Founding Fathers. They were also the fiercest of rivals. Of these two political titans, it is Jefferson—–the revered author of the Declaration of Independence and our third president—–who is better remembered today. But in fact it is Hamilton’s political legacy that has triumphed—–a legacy that has subverted the Constitution and transformed the federal government into the very leviathan state that our forefathers fought against in the American Revolution.
Another description here:
Court historians have long praised the glories of Alexander Hamilton as the greatest of the founding fathers. This view is back in vogue as U.S. economic policy becomes ever more statist...

Hamilton was the master of the political lie. He used his rhetorical powers and elite connections to invent the myth of the Constitution’s “implied powers.” He established the imperial presidency. He devised a national banking system that imposes boom-and-bust cycles on the American economy. He saddled Americans with a massive national debt and oppressive taxation. He pushed economic policies that lined the pockets of the wealthy and created a government system built on graft, spoils, and patronage. He transformed state governments from Jeffersonian bulwarks of liberty to beggars for federal crumbs.

Moreover, DiLorenzo shows that Hamilton, as compared with Jefferson, was an economic ignoramus. Whereas Jefferson was schooled in a classical liberal tradition and revered the legacy of A.R.J. Turgot, Hamilton was an old-fashioned mercantilist who thought that barriers and debt were the keys to prosperity.
The Civil War and post Civil War was basically a return of the Whigs like Hamilton.



https://mises.org/store/Hamiltons-Curse-P534.aspx
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Old 05-04-2013, 05:35 PM   #88
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Absolutely none of that addresses the topic of secession.
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Old 05-04-2013, 05:51 PM   #89
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There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially. The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their further instruction as a race, and will prepare them, I hope, for better things. How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence.
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Old 05-04-2013, 06:20 PM   #90
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
Absolutely none of that addresses the topic of secession.
Yes it does. All one needs to say is secession is justified under natural law, absence of any enumerated power or action by the new federal govt in the Constitution on a state that secedes, and lastly what was discussed at the original ConCon to not use any military force against a seceding state because it would be violating the very essence of what the Revolution was fought on. That's all you need.

The parts that don't are in response to your claims on my stands regarding privacy, Roe v Wade etc. that are quoted.
Nice try though.
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Last edited by BucEyedPea; 05-04-2013 at 06:27 PM..
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