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Old 05-04-2013, 11:16 AM  
Direckshun Direckshun is online now
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Which do Republicans hate more: immigration reform, or Obama.

If Rubio's rhetoric is any indication, it's definitely Obama.

Selling immigration reform as worthwhile simply does not appeal to the Republican party. They still believe the border isn't being protected (despite increased deportation numbers), and they still believe illegal immigrants should not have a path to citizenship.

The GOP establishment, desperately trying to keep themselves relevant demographically for the future, cannot seem to drive the party to believe in the wisdom of immigration reform, either intellectually as policy, or demographically as politics.

The main resistance, as has been covered here before:

Quote:
If President Obama wants immigration reform that includes a path to citizenship for undocumented workers, he may not want to mention it at all in tonight’s State of the Union speech, a new Washington Post poll suggests.

Seven in 10 people in the survey said they would support a path to citizenship, including 60 percent of Republicans. But when the same question was asked of a separate sample of respondents, this time with Obama’s name attached to it, support dropped to 59 percent overall and just 39 percent among Republicans.
So Rubio and the GOP have attempted selling immigration reform in classic white-is-black fashion to the base: if we don't get reform passed, Obama wins!

I don't see how this works with the House GOP, unless Boehner continues creating a majority by lumping in moderate Repulicans with Democrats. But even then, I think you need like 50 Republicans, and I don't see that happening.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ration-reform/

How Marco Rubio is enticing conservatives on immigration reform
Posted by Greg Sargent
on May 3, 2013 at 1:41 pm

So how can Republicans who want immigration reform get conservatives to accept it, given that Obama also wants it?

Republicans pushing for reform have come up with a strategic answer to that question, one that isn’t really acknowledged openly. They are subtly making the case to their base that a defeat for immigration reform is actually a hidden victory for Obama, and that passing the Senate compromise is actually worse for the President than the alternative, i.e. doing nothing.

In this sense, the immigration reform debate is perhaps the ultimate test of what Obama referred to as the need to create a “permission structure” — that is, a way for conservatives to accept something Obama wants, too. The message — which is carefully couched – is that, yes, Obama wants immigration reform, but conservatives should accept the Gang of Eight compromise because the alternative is actually better for the President.

You can see this strategy on display in Marco Rubio’s big Op ed piece in the Wall Street Journal today calling on Republicans to embrace the Gang of Eight compromise. Note this formulation in particular:

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The immigration-reform bill in the Senate is a solid starting point for solving this problem, and I believe it can be made even better as Congress begins to actively work on it in committee next week. But defeating it without offering an alternative cannot be the conservative position on immigration reform. That would leave the issue entirely in the hands of President Obama and leave in place the disastrous status quo.
The wording in the last sentence is very carefully chosen. The idea is that if we don’t pass the Gang of Eight plan, Obama wins. This case is being made on several levels. On the one hand, this notion of leaving the issue “entirely in the hands of Obama” is a partly a suggestion that the President just may use his executive powers to solve the undocumented immigrant problem himself if we don’t pass the Senate plan — just as he did with the DREAMers — even as conservatives get nothing of what they want: No increased enforcement, no E-Verify, nothing. At times, when speaking directly to conservative audiences, Rubio has made this case explicitly, as he did in this radio interview with Mark Levin:

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“If we don’t do anything, then the status quo remains, which is they won’t do anything. You won’t have E-Verify, you won’t have…. In fact, I think it’s possible that they could give legal status like they did to the DREAM Act qualificators, I mean people who qualified under the DREAM Act — they could do the same thing to millions of people more. What would stop them from doing that?”
This idea of the dangers of leaving in place “the disastrous status quo” is also an effort to make the case that failing to act now carries hidden benefits for Obama. The argument Rubio is making is a play on the notion that many conservatives simply don’t believe Obama is securing the border, despite record numbers of deportations and billions spent on border security. The Senate compromise would include massive new resources for border security; Rubio’s suggestion here is that failure to embrace it will allow Obama to continue failing to protect the border. Obama wins again!

There’s a key nuance here. As I understand the thinking, GOP base voters are turned off by the political argument that we must reform immigration because if we don’t, Obama will be able to screw Republicans over politically with Latinos. The reason the political argument doesn’t work is partly because many GOP base voters are persuaded that immigration reform will create a whole lot of Democratic voters — in purely political terms, rank-and-file members of the GOP base believe immigration reform is a net win for Democrats no matter how you slice it.

That’s why the argument can’t be openly stated as: If we embrace reform, Obama loses. It has to be carefully calibrated in the manner Rubio has adopted: Not doing anything opens the door for a far greater victory for Obama later. He will be able to do for the undocumented what he did for the DREAMers — while not securing the border — a twofer for Obama.

Obama is playing his part in this dance, too. He and the White House frequently take care to say — not in these exact words, but this is the message – that while he supports the Senate compromise, it’s far from the liberal dream legislation he’d like. And this isn’t just rhetorical: Obama really did remove himself from the process and allow bipartisan Senators, with heavy involvement from Republicans like Rubio and Lindsey Graham, create their compromise.

It’s been widely observed that we’re stalemated in Washington because GOP base voters can’t accept the idea of their representatives compromising with Obama. The President has hatched the idea of a “permission structure” to get around this problem. The immigration debate is looming as the number one test of this strategy. The rub is that Republicans, quietly, are also in on it.
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Old 05-05-2013, 12:35 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
More hate.
That does raise an interesting question, perhaps.

Do you believe that the Democratic base from 2001-2009 hated George W. Bush?
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Old 05-05-2013, 01:17 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
That does raise an interesting question, perhaps.

Do you believe that the Democratic base from 2001-2009 hated George W. Bush?
No, just the fringe. Just like today with Obama and the fringe right.
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Old 05-05-2013, 01:24 PM   #18
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No, just the fringe. Just like today with Obama and the fringe right.
That's fair.
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Old 05-05-2013, 02:03 PM   #19
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Immigration reform will get done or the Republicans will pay in 2014/2016 and beyond. I can't believe that the republican adults in the room will allow immigration reform to fail and ruin their party to accomplish what. damage Obama's legacy? How is that in the Republicans self interest?
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Old 05-05-2013, 02:53 PM   #20
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Immigration reform will get done or the Republicans will pay in 2014/2016 and beyond. I can't believe that the republican adults in the room will allow immigration reform to fail and ruin their party to accomplish what. damage Obama's legacy? How is that in the Republicans self interest?
I think the sticking point is making sure measures are put into place that will stop illegal immigration as much as possible. I agree with that. Until that part of the problem is addressed with some kind of plan there shouldn't be reform.

And don't ask me what that would be, above my pay grade.
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Old 05-05-2013, 03:23 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
That does raise an interesting question, perhaps.

Do you believe that the Democratic base from 2001-2009 hated George W. Bush?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
No, just the fringe. Just like today with Obama and the fringe right.
I'd say a more apt term is disdain. Natalie Maines encapsulated it by saying she was embarrassed that he was her president. The 'ugh, that bumpkin' factor. I'd say that's fairly mainstream, entertainment types [not just A-listers, UCB types, Broadway types, road comics, , etc.], union types, environmentalists, blue staters. . .
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Old 05-05-2013, 03:39 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
Immigration reform will get done or the Republicans will pay in 2014/2016 and beyond. I can't believe that the republican adults in the room will allow immigration reform to fail and ruin their party to accomplish what. damage Obama's legacy? How is that in the Republicans self interest?
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Old 05-05-2013, 03:51 PM   #23
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So why is Juan McCain out there on Fox News every night begging to get this passed? It's truly amazing. Had the 1965 disaster never been passed we'd not have Obama as President today.
If only we could go back to when it was perfectly legal to discriminate against the darkies.
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Old 05-05-2013, 04:31 PM   #24
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I think the sticking point is making sure measures are put into place that will stop illegal immigration as much as possible. I agree with that. Until that part of the problem is addressed with some kind of plan there shouldn't be reform.

And don't ask me what that would be, above my pay grade.
I just don't see the point. If you look at it from a political self centered prism, it's in the Republican party self interest to get this done. Why would they not do it?
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Old 05-05-2013, 04:53 PM   #25
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I just don't see the point. If you look at it from a political self centered prism, it's in the Republican party self interest to get this done. Why would they not do it?
Because maybe they want to figure out a way to correct the problem before granting amnesty. Which makes much more sense (if you really want to stop it, which I don't think democrats want to do) than just repeating the same mistake Reagan did.
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Old 05-05-2013, 04:58 PM   #26
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Because maybe they want to figure out a way to correct the problem before granting amnesty. Which makes much more sense (if you really want to stop it, which I don't think democrats want to do) than just repeating the same mistake Reagan did.
Seems to me that paying back taxes, pay fines, learning English, paying current taxes and getting no benefits, making them jump through hoops and keep qualifying while they wait 13 years is not "Amnesty".
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Old 05-05-2013, 05:23 PM   #27
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Seems to me that paying back taxes, pay fines, learning English, paying current taxes and getting no benefits, making them jump through hoops and keep qualifying while they wait 13 years is not "Amnesty".
Well, it is amnesty if you consider that if current law was enforced they'd be celebrating Cinco de Mayo outside our border. But don't confuse me with someone that doesn't think this has to be solved. I was on board with it when Bush tried pushing it through. I understand bringing your family because if you work hard odds are they will have a better life.

The thing is, we need to stop the illegal part. Just granting amnesty now without stopping it is just repeating failed history.
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:12 PM   #28
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Well, it is amnesty if you consider that if current law was enforced they'd be celebrating Cinco de Mayo outside our border.
So you want to deport 11 million people then we will talk about immigration reform?

What do you think is the solution?
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:24 PM   #29
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So you want to deport 11 million people then we will talk about immigration reform?

What do you think is the solution?
You must have stopped reading my post at the first sentence.

I acknowledge they aren't going anywhere.

Now tell me how you stop it from becoming a continuing problem.
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:38 PM   #30
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Republicans love immigration reform, it helps them with the Latino vote. Obama hates immigration reform. He will have to choose between the unions and the Latinos. Unions hate green cards and want to significantly reduce the number of foreign workers.
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