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Old 05-05-2013, 10:43 AM  
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Founding Father of the American Leviathan State

Abraham Lincoln

Time for school.

For all those who love liberty and limited government....as well as those who need to be schooled about gargantuan government...here is a course that lays it all out.


The course consists of five lectures of 45-60 minutes, followed by 30-45 minutes of Q&A. Everything is online of course, and the lectures and discussions are archived, so that you don't have to be physically there from 5:30 to 7:00 for the next five Thursdays. Here are the nightly topics:

WEEK 1: THE TRUTH ABOUT LINCOLN, RACE, AND SLAVERY

WEEK 2: WHY LINCOLN WAS ELECTED: THE FOUNDING FATHER OF CRONY CAPITALISM

WEEK 3: WAGING WAR ON THE CONSTITUTION: THE LINCOLN DICTATORSHIP

WEEK 4: FOUNDING FATHER OF THE AMERICAN WARFARE STATE

WEEK 5: THE LINCOLN CURSE: DICTATORSHIP, MILITARISM, AND ECONOMIC FASCISM

http://academy.mises.org/courses/lincoln/
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:46 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Lincoln’s efforts to secure the peaceful abolition of slavery through a gradual, compensated emancipation with the option for freed blacks to relocate outside the United States were rebuffed by Confederates and most southern white unionists. Thus, the offer was made, and it was rejected. If Lincoln was the tyrant you makes him out to be, why did not the sixteenth president simply impose his solution on the nation?

If one is to ask whether it was necessary for so many Americans to have died to end slavery, one might with at least equal justice ask a similar question of Confederate leadership, who contributed to that death toll in order to preserve the enslavement of fellow human beings. Moreover, to attribute the costs of a war that no one could have foreseen in 1861 to the actions of a single individual while ignoring the presence of other actors seems to me to be problematic. One could with more than equal justice claim that Jefferson Davis was willing to sacrifice hundred of thousands of lives to preserve slavery. Nor do you appear to care about the continued suffering of slaves or their prolonged enslavement had the Confederacy survived.
Lincoln paid lip service to various compensated emancipation plans; primarily in the border states. He even proposed a compensated emancipation bill (combined with colonization) in 1862. He failed to see these through.

He failed to use legendary political skills and rhetorical gifts to accomplish this and still resorted to warfare that killed civilians,burned entire towns populated only by civilians, rape, and the executing of civilians all of which violated international law, in a war he micromanaged.
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Old 05-05-2013, 08:12 PM   #17
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BTW, loneiguana, the Constitution of the Confederate States of America prohibited the importation of slaves (Article I, Section 9). There's a primary source for ya'!

There were no fugitive slave laws in neighboring states that would return runaway slaves to their owners. Nor would any escaping to the north have to be returned. This means the value of slaves as property would have dropped as the costs to guard them would increase. Between a place to escape,increased costs to prevent escape slavery and a restriction on importation slavery would not be sustainable
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Old 05-06-2013, 06:33 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Lincoln paid lip service to various compensated emancipation plans; primarily in the border states. He even proposed a compensated emancipation bill (combined with colonization) in 1862. He failed to see these through.

He failed to use legendary political skills and rhetorical gifts to accomplish this and still resorted to warfare that killed civilians,burned entire towns populated only by civilians, rape, and the executing of civilians all of which violated international law, in a war he micromanaged.

So you are blaming Lincoln for the South's refusal to end slavery peacefully?
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Old 05-06-2013, 06:40 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
BTW, loneiguana, the Constitution of the Confederate States of America prohibited the importation of slaves (Article I, Section 9). There's a primary source for ya'!

There were no fugitive slave laws in neighboring states that would return runaway slaves to their owners. Nor would any escaping to the north have to be returned. This means the value of slaves as property would have dropped as the costs to guard them would increase. Between a place to escape,increased costs to prevent escape slavery and a restriction on importation slavery would not be sustainable
First, the Confederates didn't need to import slaves. The American slave trade (between states) was booming in the middle of 1800's. This point is irrelevant. Try actually understanding history, not parroting someone elses BS.

Is Your entire argument is that slavery would have ended because escaped slaves could run away to the north?

One, slaves were hardly guarded, so no increase in cost.

two, what increased cost to prevent slaves from escaping

three, slaves were not imported at this time within the Confederate, Slaves were born raised and traded within the south. The south had its own slave trade.

Four, what makes you think the North (still racist) would accept escaped slaves in large numbers? Evidence from the Civil War shows this to be problematic.
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Old 05-06-2013, 06:58 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Election of 1864 election Lincoln won with 55% of the vote—with the South OUT of the Union.
Right, Lincoln was unpopular in the South. I'm sure that's not exactly newsworthy.

As for the rest, there's nothing like taking a few factoids here and there and painting a wildly false picture with them. It's like giving you two pieces from a puzzle of a Rembrandt and you explaining how, if you hold them just right, it's actually two pieces of a Dora the Explorer picture.
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Old 05-06-2013, 07:00 AM   #21
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It would've been interesting to see what would've happened to the South had they been allowed to leave freewill. Slavery wouldn't have lasted very long and certainly not in the face of massive technological advancements that made manpower farming irrelevant. Then what? What would they do? Ask back in?

The issue is that slavery was the bedrock on which the South's entire social and economic system was built. If you think slavery would've been gone by, say, 1880, that's ridiculous. At some point, way down the road, who knows.

But it hardly matters. The South rose up in rebellion to fight for and save slavery. The North didn't fight to end it, primarily, but if anyone was at fault for fighting over slavery, it's the South. If they could've known that soon slavery would be economically undesirable (arguably it was already, but the South was far too blind to see that), maybe they don't rebel, but we'll never know.
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Old 05-06-2013, 07:05 AM   #22
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As I said before, they'd likely have returned because it was in their best interests.
Right, because two countries merge all the time because it's "in their best interests." I'm sure the politicians of both countries would be glad to risk their power and wealth by merging countries.

Oh wait, actually, that's absurd, but then so are you.

Quote:
That's the main point, made by those who say slaughtering 620,000 our our fellow country men t end slavery wasn't necessary. Please, go back and read earlier debates we've had here before on how slavery in that era was ended by the stroke of a pen in other countries. Dozens of countries. We're one of the few that slaughtered over it. One method was compensated emancipation. Although, if you read British Progs, they didn't even like that idea. They just prefer the force and violence of govt instead.

The fact that the South seceded and then fought a ruinous war for the EXPRESS STATED purpose of preserving slavery tells me all I need to know about how likely it was that the South would agree to end slavery "by the stroke of a pen."

By 1950 would slavery be gone? Sure, probably, but the South didn't decide to wait and see what would happen. When Lincoln was elected they felt they had lost control over Washington DC and slavery would be shut out of federal territories and new states, so they had to secede before the North made it impossible for the system to continue.

Have you ever read on Lew Rockwell how the Southern politicans dreamed of expanding the Confederacy further west and also south into the Caribbean islands? The entire Southern economic and political leadership was hell-bent to not only preserve slavery, but to create an even larger country based on the slave system.
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Old 05-06-2013, 07:17 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Lincoln paid lip service to various compensated emancipation plans; primarily in the border states. He even proposed a compensated emancipation bill (combined with colonization) in 1862. He failed to see these through.

He failed to use legendary political skills and rhetorical gifts to accomplish this and still resorted to warfare that killed civilians,burned entire towns populated only by civilians, rape, and the executing of civilians all of which violated international law, in a war he micromanaged.
You're not serious. This statement alone really shows your complete ignorance of Civil War history (and/or the many mistakes that Lewrockwell.com has in its articles).
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Old 05-06-2013, 07:19 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
BTW, loneiguana, the Constitution of the Confederate States of America prohibited the importation of slaves (Article I, Section 9). There's a primary source for ya'!
That wasn't new. Slaves hadn't been imported since 1808. If you had the brains God gave to a goose you'd understand that it was because there were already so many slaves in the US that they were already fully self-sufficient in terms of making more to satisfy demand.

Quote:
There were no fugitive slave laws in neighboring states that would return runaway slaves to their owners. Nor would any escaping to the north have to be returned. This means the value of slaves as property would have dropped as the costs to guard them would increase. Between a place to escape,increased costs to prevent escape slavery and a restriction on importation slavery would not be sustainable

Pure speculation, and ignoring the history of the Southern states, before and during the Civil War, which was constantly seeking to expand the slave system.
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Old 05-06-2013, 07:58 AM   #25
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I do find it puzzling how some have taken to challenging the notion the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery. Of course it was. Hiding behind "states rights" is avoiding the the 10,000 pound elephant in the living room.
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:02 AM   #26
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I do find it puzzling how some have taken to challenging the notion the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery. Of course it was. Hiding behind "states rights" is avoiding the the 10,000 pound elephant in the living room.

It doesn't fit their story so they try to deny it, even though the South themselves specifically said in their articles of secession that they were seceding to defend slavery.

It doesn't matter to them, though. Inconvenient facts are totally irrelevant to them. They just ignore them.
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:05 AM   #27
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Why do I have the feeling that BEP has convinced herself that if she just says the same crazy things enough times it will convince everyone she is right.
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:10 AM   #28
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So you are blaming Lincoln for the South's refusal to end slavery peacefully?
Strawman.
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:13 AM   #29
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Why do I have the feeling that BEP has convinced herself that if she just says the same crazy things enough times it will convince everyone she is right.

Seriously. There's nothing new here.

What's incredible is the sheer imperviousness to obvious, provable, verifiable facts. Lincoln is reelected 55/45 in the middle of a horrible civil war and yet somehow "no American president was more reviled by his contemporaries — at home and abroad — during his own lifetime than Abraham Lincoln was."

Nearly all Union soldiers that were drafted fought and fought well once they had decent leadership, and yet somehow it all boils down to one set of riots in NYC and yet "entire regiments of Union Army soldiers deserted on the eve of battle again and again, and tens of thousands — probably more — deserted."

As if Confederate soldiers weren't drafted (the South instituted the draft first) and didn't have desertion problems (uhh, yeah, they did).

The list goes on and on and on and on and on.
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:32 AM   #30
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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I do find it puzzling how some have taken to challenging the notion the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery. Of course it was. Hiding behind "states rights" is avoiding the the 10,000 pound elephant in the living room.
I didn't see anyone saying slavery wasn't a factor. You must be learning how to strawman. Afterall, Amnorix is one of the best at this form of argumentation and now we have Loneiguana. It seems to run more deeply on the progressive side of the political spectrum.
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