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Old 05-15-2013, 01:07 AM  
Taco John Taco John is offline
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The day the Obama administration went all Nixon on us

The day the Obama administration went all Nixon on us

Attytood spoiler: That day was May 7, 2012...but first a quick history lesson.

Sigh...I know, I know, I write too much about the late 1960s and early 1970s, but this time it's really important. Because today that is the rallying cry for any presidential scandal, that this one is "worse than Watergate." But the Watergate break-in happened 41 years ago, which means that more than half of all Americans weren't even born yet, so you can't blame a lot of voters if they don't know much about what Watergate and the related scandals of Richard Milhous Nixon were all about.

One of the biggest drivers of Watergate was the seemingly unending war in Vietnam. As opposition increased to a foreign war that ultimately killed 58,000 Americans, for goals that were murky at best, so did government paranoia. At the core of Watergate was a team of shady operatives that were nicknamed "the White House Plumbers" -- because they went after news leaks...get it? In May 1969, after news reports about U.S. bombing activities in Cambodia, Nixon and his then-national security adviser Henry Kissinger enlisted J. Edgar Hoover's FBI to wiretap journalists and national security aides.

Later, one of the worst governmental abuses occurred after whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg leaked the massive Pentagon Papers that exposed governmental lies about the conduct of the war in Vietnam. Nixon's "Plumbers" broke into the office of Ellsberg's psychiatrist to dig up dirt to discredit him. Here is what one of Nixon's former aides, Egil Krogh, wrote about it in 2007:
The premise of our action was the strongly held view within certain precincts of the White House that the president and those functioning on his behalf could carry out illegal acts with impunity if they were convinced that the nation’s security demanded it. As President Nixon himself said to David Frost during an interview six years later, “When the president does it, that means it is not illegal.” To this day the implications of this statement are staggering.
No doubt. Luckily for America, not everyone agreed. Over the next couple of years, criminal charges against Ellsberg were tossed because of the government's misconduct, and Nixon resigned facing certain impeachment over the activities of his Plumbers and the ensuing, elaborate cover-up. The nation mostly rejoiced. The system worked...for a while.

Flash forward to 2012. America had at that point been in an undefined "war on terror" for 11 years -- the same amount of time from the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident that greatly expanded the Vietnam War to the 1975 fall of Saigon. Just as during the 1960s and early 1970s, this terror war had provided government with an excuse to greatly expand its domestic spying on American citizens -- some of that through a law called the Patriot Act and some of it even more dubious, constitutionally.

Then, on May 7, 2012, the Associated Press published an article about the Obama administration's conduct of its war in a country that we'd never declared war on (it was Cambodia in 1969, but Yemen in 2012) and Obama's Justice Department -- for reasons not yet fully known -- went crazy over the leak. This, then, is a reminder of why history matters so much.

Because if we're not careful...it repeats:
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Justice Department secretly obtained two months of telephone records of reporters and editors for The Associated Press in what the news cooperative's top executive called a "massive and unprecedented intrusion" into how news organizations gather the news.


The records obtained by the Justice Department listed outgoing calls for the work and personal phone numbers of individual reporters, for general AP office numbers in New York, Washington and Hartford, Conn., and for the main number for the AP in the House of Representatives press gallery, according to attorneys for the AP. It was not clear if the records also included incoming calls or the duration of the calls.


In all, the government seized the records for more than 20 separate telephone lines assigned to AP and its journalists in April and May of 2012. The exact number of journalists who used the phone lines during that period is unknown, but more than 100 journalists work in the offices where phone records were targeted, on a wide array of stories about government and other matters.
The AP's CEO said tonight that "[t]here can be no possible justification for such an overbroad collection of the telephone communications of The Associated Press and its reporters" -- and I could not agree with him more. This revelation is deeply troubling -- and has the makings of a major scandal. Sure, you could try to mitigate it by noting, fairly, that accessing these phone records isn't as bad as wiretapping. But that is small solace, indeed. There's every reason to believe that Attorney General Eric Holder signed off on this unwarranted assault on the First Amendment, and if so, he ought to be canned (hasn't he overstayed his welcome, anyway?). Also, you might try to excuse this as a one-off, an ill-advised but isolated incident.

Except that it's not.

Since the day he took office, the Obama administration has undertaken an assault on government whistleblowers -- people informing citizens of what their government doesn't want them to know -- that surpasses anything that Nixon or any other president has done. Since 2009, the Obama administration has brought espionage charges against six whistleblowers. And most of these whistleblowers have been criticizing that way that America conducts its neverending war of the 21st Century. One, Thomas Drake, blew the whistle on the illegal warrantless wiretapping that began under George W. Bush. John Kiriakou dropped the dime on illegal U.S. torture -- and was sent away to prison, even as the perpetrators of torture from Dick Cheney to John Yoo continue to walk freely among us.

Nixon had Daniel Ellsberg, and Obama has Bradley Manning of Wikileaks. OK, so they didn't break into the office of Manning's psychiatrist, but they have detained Manning in a solitary confinement that a UN torture expert called "cruel, inhuman and degrading." Do you feel better about that? Because I don't. The war on whistleblowers, the treatment of Manning, and now this investigation of journalists are all hallmarks of a White House that promised transparency but has been one of the most secretive -- all to the detriment of the public's right to know.

Let's be clear -- this is about Obama...and it is about much, much more than Obama. It is yet another example of how the national security state that has dominated our political life since World War II has corrupted the American soul. It is exactly what Philadelphia's own Benjamin Franklin tried to warn us about -- trading liberty for security, and geting neither. To the conservatives reading this, who warn so much about big government running amok...here it is. To the liberals reading this, who thought that one man named Barack Obama could change the system, he couldn't. Only we, the citizens, can truly change things.

Let's work together. Let's start by repealing the 2001 Authorization of the Use of Force, declare victory in what was formerly known as the war on terror, and resolve that never again will this nation enter into a perpetual and constitutionally dubious war. Let's repeal the most egregious aspects of the USA Patriot Act, hold public hearings on the true extent that the U.S. government has spied on citizens without warrants -- and then bring those practices to an end. And as today's events made crystal clear, let's make America a nation where journalists and other truth-tellers can write stories or reveal information that the government might not like...without fear of intrusion or reprisal. Ironically, many of those type of changes were supposed to happen after Nixon, after Vietnam But they either didn't last, or they didn't come at all.

If greater liberty comes from the latest revelations, Obama's sins -- however bad not not bad they may turn out to be -- will not make things worse than Watergate. This time, it -- the aftermath, anyway -- will be better than Watergate.


Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/a...8PRD54hZRVr.99
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Old 05-15-2013, 11:49 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Sure, and the buck stops here and all that, but until we know if the OA itself ordered this, then we don't know. The federal government is absurdly massive. They can't keep track of everything. If the OA didn't order this (and if they did, that's massively troublesome), then some bureaucrat (or lower level political appointee) has gotten himself into some massive hot water.
Actually, the President is prevented by law from communicating with the IRS. It is walled-off specifically to avoid political interference. So you can rest assured on that one.
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Old 05-15-2013, 11:55 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by FD View Post
Actually, the President is prevented by law from communicating with the IRS. It is walled-off specifically to avoid political interference. So you can rest assured on that one.
Irrelevant because he can break the law and then we have the coverup. You are so naive.
If Obama didn't know, we know there's a leftist bunch doing it. Still isn't right.

Funny, how those defending Obama are using a BIG government argument as their fig leaf.
Oh the irony!
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Old 05-15-2013, 12:03 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by FD View Post
Actually, the President is prevented by law from communicating with the IRS. It is walled-off specifically to avoid political interference. So you can rest assured on that one.
Except he appoints it's head and it is a part of the Dept of the Treasury, but outside of that.
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Old 05-15-2013, 12:06 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Sure, and the buck stops here and all that, but until we know if the OA itself ordered this, then we don't know. The federal government is absurdly massive. They can't keep track of everything. If the OA didn't order this (and if they did, that's massively troublesome), then some bureaucrat (or lower level political appointee) has gotten himself into some massive hot water.




The State Department has personnel taking risks all the time. Every day. All over the world. Difficult judgment calls are made all the time about security versus doing their jobs. I haven't yet seen some massive failure by those above the poor deceased ambassador sufficient to warrant the witch hunt Republicans are calling for. I'm sure they will keep digging, so we'll see if anything more interesting turns up. So far all I see is alot of excitement about talking points, which doesn't excite anyone except those who already paint Obama with horns on his head.
Those are excuses. There were over 200 security incidents in Libya leading up to attack. Seriously...

And thank you for agreeing that our Government is too big.
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Old 05-15-2013, 12:10 PM   #35
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Except he appoints it's head and it is a part of the Dept of the Treasury, but outside of that.
Nixon > Barry
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Old 05-15-2013, 12:53 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
Apparently, the talking points are out, because that's what Axelrod is saying now:
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...-that%E2%80%99


How amusing that they're taking the Tea Party's main issue and using it as their fig leaf.
Nice. I figured that one out all by myself.

Of course it's basically been a truism of sorts since at least FDR. A quick bit of Googling shows an article that estimates 2.65 million executive branch employees as of 2010, or nearly 1 in every 100 Americans. That includes Postal Service, however, so that number is somewhat inflated.

Let's just say the President is highly dependent on the individuals that he puts into the cabinet ministries and the others that he delegates to. Ultimately, absent high crimes and misdemeanors, the punishment for bad leadership etc. will need to be left to the polls.
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Old 05-15-2013, 12:54 PM   #37
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Actually, the President is prevented by law from communicating with the IRS. It is walled-off specifically to avoid political interference. So you can rest assured on that one.

Interesting. Did not know that. If that was enforced then it should work to wall the Administration off from blame, unless this fiasco can be tracked back to an Obama appointee or something.
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Old 05-15-2013, 01:02 PM   #38
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Except he appoints it's head and it is a part of the Dept of the Treasury, but outside of that.
You say this sarcastically, but its correct. Outside of appointing the commissioner (something Obama hasn't actually done, ironically), the President can't do anything else to the IRS. Its walled-off. For instance, Obama is not allowed to fire the current acting commissioner since he didn't appoint him, and he isn't allowed to fire anyone at IRS.

That doesn't mean this isn't an important scandal, by the way, I definitely think there should be full investigations of everyone involved and many people should lose their jobs and maybe even face charges. But its safe to rule out the idea that Obama "ordered" this to happen. He hasn't that ability.
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Old 05-15-2013, 04:27 PM   #39
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So, first, it's my understanding that the Justice Department informed AP of the subpoenas which is hardly similar to the massive coverup that Nixon launched over Watergate.

Second, there is a big difference between the Watergate break-in and using subpoena powers to request telephone records from third parties. Among other things, what the Obama administration did is almost certainly LEGAL (if unusual).

I do agree that we should be aware of, and carefully watch, the Administration's actions when it comes to keeping an eye on the media. A free, independent and un-repressed media is critical to maintaining individual liberties (which is why libertarians are going nuts, of course).
I hope you get a withering audit shoved up your arse because you support a specific political point of view and then I hope the Boston P.D. barrels into your house looking for Yankee fans without a search warrant. You deserve it chowda, you wicked deserve it.
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Old 05-15-2013, 09:31 PM   #40
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I hope you get a withering audit shoved up your arse because you support a specific political point of view and then I hope the Boston P.D. barrels into your house looking for Yankee fans without a search warrant. You deserve it chowda, you wicked deserve it.
Love it. Great response!

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Old 05-16-2013, 03:52 AM   #41
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The State Department has personnel taking risks all the time. Every day. All over the world. Difficult judgment calls are made all the time about security versus doing their jobs. I haven't yet seen some massive failure by those above the poor deceased ambassador sufficient to warrant the witch hunt Republicans are calling for. I'm sure they will keep digging, so we'll see if anything more interesting turns up. So far all I see is alot of excitement about talking points, which doesn't excite anyone except those who already paint Obama with horns on his head.
I'm not really sure what the significance of the talking points being wrong is besides showing that the administration didn't want some of the details out during an election (imagine that, politicians acting political!). But it does make me wonder what is up. Why lie about them (and Obama - thru Carney - most definitely was not telling the truth when he said the White House made one small change) and why does he seem to be so determined to not let that be seen as a scandal? I've always thought the real scandal in Benghazi was why they had people there to begin with when they couldn't protect them adequately.

In hindsight, however, Obama's statements during the second debate that he found the idea of anyone claiming they'd play politics with the issue offensive is kind of laughable now.
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:16 AM   #42
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Well they moved on from Bush's fault and went all the way back to Nixon to blame him
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:31 AM   #43
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Well they moved on from Bush's fault and went all the way back to Nixon to blame him
Friggin Hoover LOL
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Old 05-16-2013, 08:52 AM   #44
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I'm not really sure what the significance of the talking points being wrong is besides showing that the administration didn't want some of the details out during an election (imagine that, politicians acting political!). But it does make me wonder what is up. Why lie about them (and Obama - thru Carney - most definitely was not telling the truth when he said the White House made one small change) and why does he seem to be so determined to not let that be seen as a scandal? I've always thought the real scandal in Benghazi was why they had people there to begin with when they couldn't protect them adequately.

In hindsight, however, Obama's statements during the second debate that he found the idea of anyone claiming they'd play politics with the issue offensive is kind of laughable now.
No politician should ever say they wouldn't play politics with anything, ever. Everything is political. EVERYTHING.
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Old 05-16-2013, 08:53 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by King_Chief_Fan View Post
Well they moved on from Bush's fault and went all the way back to Nixon to blame him

Eh? Did you read the thread title and the OP?
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Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.
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