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Old 05-22-2013, 08:54 AM  
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Why was there NO basement in that Oklahoma public school?

Professor Tom DiLorenzo hits the nail on the head why:



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In one of my earlier books I cited former New York City Mayor Ed Koch explaining why the city's "infrastructure" (sewer and water lines, bridges and roads, etc.) always seemed to be long overdue for maintenance and rebuilding: "It's hard to hold a ribbon-cutting ceremony for a new sewer line," said the mayor.

Government turns everything it touches into crap, and economics provides numerous explanations why. In this case, Mayor Koch hit the nail on the head: Politicians like himself will always spend taxpayers' money in a way that enhaces THEIR popularity and maximizes THEIR chances for re-election. There are orders of magnitude more votes to be had in handing out welfare benefits or lavish public employee pensions than in replacing leaky water lines. Public employees are well organized politically; the average taxpaying citizens are not.

As for Oklahoma City, news reports are that there was not an underground basement in that public school where nine children died during the tornado. An explanation is that when it comes to spending money on "schools," broadly defined, there are many, many more votes and campaign contributions to be had by spending the money on increased public school teacher and administrator salaries and pensions than on school building basements. Teachers' unions are famously well organized politically; average taxpayers are not. Putting a basement in a new school building will not motivate government school teachers to spend thousands of hours campaigning and driving voters to the polls in school buses. Promises of pay and pension increases will.
Don't be fooled by Prog claims they're looking out for your children or your interests. They are for lining their own pockets first. Whether it's for more bureaucratic jobs with pensions, pay increases or otherwise. This is why they see "greed" in businessmen primarily. They suffer from greed themselves. A Me First attitude.

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Old 05-22-2013, 09:58 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by tiptap View Post
Your statement was that government could not make the correct choice implying the industry or private enterprise gets it correct, I suppose by divine providence. The question of funding the basement was a choice based upon many factors. The choice to insure your building is earthquake proof in California or Hurricane proof in Florida are sometimes made with the notion that you insure the lost of building. Did the school board have insurance on the building. The correct answer in hindsight is always better FOR A SPECIFIC SIGHT AND CHOICE vs random happenings. How many schools without basements were not hit and those teachers now are a community source for this disaster.
DiLorenzo's point was that if unions can organize to get the funds they need for things like salary increases or pensions ( often despite results), then why not on some way to increase protection since they live in a tornado prone area and have been hit BEFORE. And that its a political process that maximizes advantages for some. Please refute his actual point.
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:02 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by LiveSteam View Post
I think most newer schools in Oklahoma have some type of shelter built into them.
From what I have heard on the news the school that the kids were in was built back in the 60s. I have been building basements for over 25 years. Its what I do for a living. Red Clay in Oklahoma is no match for a bulldozer.
You can do it, but it's not cost effective, and the clay will expand and contract so much that the basement won't last long. It will be cracked and leaking in a matter of years. Plus the water line is usually only a few feet deep. There's a reason why barely 1% of Oklahoma homes have basements...
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:04 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
These are above ground.
I dnt know. Not sure anything above ground would have been a 100% safe from that twister. That was the mother of twisters. Masonry most certainly would not have withstood those forces
That I can say for a fact
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:06 AM   #19
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Looks promising...now about those unions

Storm shelters in demand after tornado


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Old 05-22-2013, 10:07 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by LiveSteam View Post
I dnt know. Not sure anything above ground would have been a 100% safe from that twister. That was the mother of twisters. Masonry most certainly would not have withstood those forces
That I can say for a fact
From the same link I used last:

Storm shelters certified by the National Storm Shelter Association are tested against 250-mph winds and debris traveling at that speed, says Ernst Kiesling, head of the NSSA and a research professor at Texas Tech University's National Wind Institute in Lubbock. "They would have easily survived the 200-mph winds reported from Oklahoma," Kiesling says. "We're greatly chagrined that the message has been sent that the only safe place is underground. That's simply not accurate. People can feel very safe in a modern storm shelter."
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:08 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
You can do it, but it's not cost effective, and the clay will expand and contract so much that the basement won't last long. It will be cracked and leaking in a matter of years. Plus the water line is usually only a few feet deep. There's a reason why barely 1% of Oklahoma homes have basements...
you think the ground here in Nebraska doesn't do the same thing. The ground expands from frost & I promise you Nebraska has way more frost to deal with than Oklahoma. & we have water problems here to. Drain tile
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:09 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
DiLorenzo's point was that if unions can organize to get the funds they need for things like salary increases or pensions ( often despite results), then why not on some way to increase protection since they live in a tornado prone area and have been hit BEFORE. And that its a political process that maximizes advantages for some. Please refute his actual point.

Now initially you were talking about governments failing to anticipate what is needed because of the political element of getting elected. Now it isn't the school board but the unionization of teachers in making their case for salary and benefits. I am overwhelmed and going for lunch. I can't follow this anymore.
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:12 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
From the same link I used last:

Storm shelters certified by the National Storm Shelter Association are tested against 250-mph winds and debris traveling at that speed, says Ernst Kiesling, head of the NSSA and a research professor at Texas Tech University's National Wind Institute in Lubbock. "They would have easily survived the 200-mph winds reported from Oklahoma," Kiesling says. "We're greatly chagrined that the message has been sent that the only safe place is underground. That's simply not accurate. People can feel very safe in a modern storm shelter."

Drop a concrete wall on it. These shelters do help greatly in suburban housing but are not a solution in buildings so much.
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:12 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by tiptap View Post
Now initially you were talking about governments failing to anticipate what is needed because of the political element of getting elected. Now it isn't the school board but the unionization of teachers in making their case for salary and benefits. I am overwhelmed and going for lunch. I can't follow this anymore.
Nope. You need to re-read it. Especially this part:

Quote:
There are orders of magnitude more votes to be had in handing out welfare benefits or lavish public employee pensions than in replacing leaky water lines. Public employees are well organized politically; the average taxpaying citizens are not.
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:13 AM   #25
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While it is true not much can withstand an EF-5, they could have built better than with typical hollow concrete block. They could have selected several interior rooms, like the bathrooms, and reinforced the HCB walls with reinforcing rods and concrete poured into the voids.
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:13 AM   #26
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Drop a concrete wall on it. These shelters do help greatly in suburban housing but are not a solution in buildings so much.
The article talks about community shelters too. I don't buy the "Can't Be Done." Not with all the money that gets thrown at education just to improve results—for poor results to boot.
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:15 AM   #27
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you think the ground here in Nebraska doesn't do the same thing. The ground expands from frost & I promise you Nebraska has way more frost to deal with than Oklahoma. & we have water problems here to. Drain tile
No, the soil in Nebraska is very different. As is the water table, frost line, and bedrock level. Nebraska has more frost, but the frost line and type of soil make for vastly different scenarios.
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:15 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by bobbymitch View Post
While it is true not much can withstand an EF-5, they could have built better than with typical hollow concrete block. They could have selected several interior rooms, like the bathrooms, and reinforced the HCB walls with reinforcing rods and concrete poured into the voids.
Now, that's offering some solution over the "Can't Be Done" at all stoppers.
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:42 AM   #29
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If a mobile home park can get community shelter, I don't see why a school can't.

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“The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the legislature.” ~ James Madison, Father of the Constitution

“We do not believe in aggressive or preventive war. Such war is the weapon of dictators, not of free democratic countries like the United States.”~ Truman, Sept 1, 1950
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Old 05-22-2013, 11:59 AM   #30
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