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Old 05-24-2013, 10:19 PM  
patteeu patteeu is offline
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Does welfare cause terrorism?

Mickey Kaus asks the question:
Does welfare cause terrorism?
Mickey Kaus
5/23/2013

How long before we find out that “alleged” Woolwich murderer Michael Adebolajo was on some kind of welfare? Or else his household was on welfare. The Tsarnaevs received various kinds of welfare too, of course, as have numerous other terrorists. This is not a coincidence:

“In fact, there’s a good argument that “welfare benefits + ethnic antagonism” is the universal recipe for an underclass with an angry, oppositional culture. The social logic is simple: Ethnic differences make it easy for those outside of, for example, French Arab neighborhoods to discriminate against those inside, and easy for those inside to resent the mainstream culture around them. Meanwhile, relatively generous welfare benefits enable those in the ethnic ghetto to stay there, stay unemployed, and seethe. Without government subsidies, they would have to overcome the prejudice against them and integrate into the mainstream working culture. Work, in this sense, is anti-terrorist medicine. (And if you work all day, there’s less time to dream up ways and reasons to kill infidels.)”

If Adebolajo turns out to have earned his own living, I’ll be surprised and chastened. Will post update in this space. …
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Old 05-25-2013, 05:29 AM   #16
patteeu patteeu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan View Post
Jihadists come from different backgrounds. Many are well educated. Some well off. The failed Christmas day airline bomber comes from one of the wealthiest families in Nigeria. For people in poor countries where jobs are scarce, money makes them vulnerable to join terrorist organizations.

North African states, such as Somalia, force people to join. Moreover, most have a strong belief in their cause - which varies from time to time.

Some jihadists are deeply religious and believe in strict Islamic (Sharia) law derived from the Quran - Islam is not only a religion, it is a way of life.

Sharia varies from country to country - Saudi Arabia and Oman are the only Arab countries that follow Sharia as the law of the country - However, they added a number of legislations, where no legislations exist.

In other Arab countries Sharia plays a lesser role - Islamic extremists believe it is their religious duty to wage a holy war based on rules of the Quran.

According to a study at West Point, terrorists often join groups because they have friends that do so.
That all makes good sense, but the theory in this article is really about cultural/ethnic minorities living in enclaves in western countries where they have access to welfare. It's questioning the impact of welfare in that recipe.

It doesn't suggest that this is the only recipe for the creation of a terrorist nor does it address the causes of terrorism in places like Somolia or Yemen, or Pakistan.
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Old 05-25-2013, 06:36 AM   #17
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Interesting... I wonder if Mickey Kaus thinks the current riots in Sweden support or conflict with his theory.
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Old 05-25-2013, 07:05 AM   #18
patteeu patteeu is offline
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Originally Posted by Warrior5 View Post
Interesting... I wonder if Mickey Kaus thinks the current riots in Sweden support or conflict with his theory.
It's funny that you say that. I edited it out of the OP for the sake of readability, but Kaus includes an update in the middle of his post about the Sweden riots:

Quote:
Hostage to news cycle: How long before we find out that “alleged” Woolwich murderer Michael Adebolajo was on some kind of welfare? Or else his household was on welfare. The Tsarnaevs received various kinds of welfare too, of course, as have numerous other terrorists. This is not a coincidence:

“In fact, there’s a good argument that “welfare benefits + ethnic antagonism” is the universal recipe for an underclass with an angry, oppositional culture. The social logic is simple: Ethnic differences make it easy for those outside of, for example, French Arab neighborhoods to discriminate against those inside, and easy for those inside to resent the mainstream culture around them. [Update: See also, Sweden.] Meanwhile, relatively generous welfare benefits enable those in the ethnic ghetto to stay there, stay unemployed, and seethe. Without government subsidies, they would have to overcome the prejudice against them and integrate into the mainstream working culture. Work, in this sense, is anti-terrorist medicine. (And if you work all day, there’s less time to dream up ways and reasons to kill infidels.)”

If Adebolajo turns out to have earned his own living, I’ll be surprised and chastened. Will post update in this space. …
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Old 05-25-2013, 07:31 AM   #19
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I'm not sure that I buy the author's case that a + b = c here, but I have long maintained that the creation of a permanent under-class contributes to instability. (I've discussed it in the context of Hispanic immigration to the US leading to the creation of gangs in the past, but northern African immigration to Europen countries is probably quite similar.)

I'm sure there's something to it, but I don't know how much... Will be interesting to see if he turns out to be right. Seems like people have a tendency to cavalierly dismiss a theory that is always right just because it doesn't fit their own paradigm. (I'm as guilty as anyone, and it's something I'm trying to change about myself.)
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Old 05-25-2013, 07:52 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saul Good View Post
I'm not sure that I buy the author's case that a + b = c here, but I have long maintained that the creation of a permanent under-class contributes to instability. (I've discussed it in the context of Hispanic immigration to the US leading to the creation of gangs in the past, but northern African immigration to Europen countries is probably quite similar.)

I'm sure there's something to it, but I don't know how much... Will be interesting to see if he turns out to be right. Seems like people have a tendency to cavalierly dismiss a theory that is always right just because it doesn't fit their own paradigm. (I'm as guilty as anyone, and it's something I'm trying to change about myself.)
Yeah, the real question here (I think), more than terrorism is whether welfare helps people get on their own feet and assimilate with productive, civil society or whether it makes it harder or less attractive to do so.
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Old 05-25-2013, 08:01 AM   #21
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Pat I am sure you are aware but I think people were resonding to yours\authors over simplified thread title. If Welfare does cause terrorism then we would have a bunch of trailer park trash Comrade Crapski's with their 10 kids committing all kinds of terrorist acts. But we don't.

As far as the article goes I disagree with some of it. I think it has more to do with assimilation than welfare. The vast majority of Muslim Americans in this country have assimilated very well and are hard working law abiding citizens. In GB and France they have refused to assimilate. Now receiving welfare may play a part in that but I don't think that is the overriding reason.

Or maybe we can just listen to what the terrorist said on video as for the reason for his act. Of course no one want's to discuss that. It has to be the evil welfare system.
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Old 05-25-2013, 08:02 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saul Good View Post
I'm not sure that I buy the author's case that a + b = c here, but I have long maintained that the creation of a permanent under-class contributes to instability. (I've discussed it in the context of Hispanic immigration to the US leading to the creation of gangs in the past, but northern African immigration to Europen countries is probably quite similar.)
)
I would agree that a permanent underclass creates instability if that underclass feels marginalized by the state's power structure.

The problem with the author's assertion is that he tries to shoehorn "welfare" as a boogeyman into this discussion, and it's not relevant. Welfare systems tend to pacify disadvantaged populations, not radicalize them.

If you are interested in the root causes of terrorism, I'd suggest reading The Wretched of the Earth and watching The Battle of Algiers. They both offer compelling reasons for why insurgencies and/or terrorism exist.
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Old 05-25-2013, 08:06 AM   #23
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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More lies by Republicans.

Why don't we see more White people commit terrorist acts? 38.8 percent of all welfare goes to white people in America? That is the second larges behind African American's and 39.8 percent. Only 3.3 percent of Welfare people are neither white, black, Asian, or Hispanic.

The majority of people on Welfare (over 55 percent) are off of welfare within two years. So the article's claim of welfare dependence is based on a lie (like more republican social opinions).

http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/

The articles claim that those on welfare don't work - "Meanwhile, relatively generous welfare benefits enable those in the ethnic ghetto to stay there, stay unemployed, and seethe. Without government subsidies, they would have to overcome the prejudice against them and integrate into the mainstream working culture" - is also based off of more Republican lies. The vast majority of those who receive benefits work.

"Such beliefs are starkly at odds with the basic facts regarding social programs, the analysis finds. Federal budget and Census data show that, in 2010, 91 percent of the benefit dollars from entitlement and other mandatory programs went to the elderly (people 65 and over), the seriously disabled, and members of working households. People who are neither elderly nor disabled — and do not live in a working household — received only 9 percent of the benefits. "

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3677

In conclusion, that article offers nothing but lies, from the information to the analysis. Just another Conservative attempt to demonize poor people and our Social Safety Net through the use of lies.
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Old 05-25-2013, 08:14 AM   #24
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Old 05-25-2013, 08:27 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
It doesn't suggest that this is the only recipe for the creation of a terrorist nor does it address the causes of terrorism in places like Somolia or Yemen, or Pakistan.
With all due respect. I only responded to the title of the thread.

To answer your second question - I did touch on Somalia. However, I suggest you look into Al-Shabaab and militia groups in the country.

Pakistan: I suggest you Google the Pakistani Taliban also known as Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan and Al Qaeda (who have global ambitions) based in Pakistan’s lawless northwest - demanding Sharia law.

In addition, you might want to look into FATA also known as the Federally Administered Tribal Areas bordering Afghanistan.

Yemen: is a safe haven for terrorists due to a weak government.

Your questions are ones that require more than one short answers.

Edit: Welfare does not cause terrorism.
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Old 05-25-2013, 08:28 AM   #26
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Wasn't Tim McVeigh on welfare?
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Old 05-25-2013, 08:32 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Yeah, the real question here (I think), more than terrorism is whether welfare helps people get on their own feet and assimilate with productive, civil society or whether it makes it harder or less attractive to do so.
Yes that is the real question.
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Old 05-25-2013, 08:34 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
You read it, but then you responded with a pile of data that had nothing to do with the theory being presented? And now you pose as the guy taking the intellectual high road? Please.
The author posists:

“'welfare benefits + ethnic antagonism' is the universal recipe for an underclass with an angry, oppositional culture. "

The places that have the highest rates of terrorism do have significant ethnic antagonism, but aren't well noted for having a welfare state. In fact places that do have both welfare benefits and ethnic antagonism, (the US and the UK are among them) have lower rates of terrorism than places with ethnic antagonism and less welfare. If anything, it appears that places where ethnic antagonism exists, that welfare benefits mitigate the tendency for radicalization and incidents of terrorism. Cursory consideration of data causes the hypothesis to be rejected out of hand. There may be alternative hypothesis worth considering, but it isn't stated in the OP.
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Old 05-25-2013, 08:38 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Yeah, the real question here (I think), more than terrorism is whether welfare helps people get on their own feet and assimilate with productive, civil society or whether it makes it harder or less attractive to do so.
A question worthy of discussion without bringing terrorism to the table. Connection of terrorism and welfare is just a ham-handed attempt to demonize social programs.
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Old 05-25-2013, 08:43 AM   #30
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