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Old 05-25-2013, 09:50 PM  
Dave Lane Dave Lane is offline
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Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

It's all about works, just as it always has been and always should be. The pope says so!

Pope Francis rocked some religious and atheist minds today when he declared that everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists.

During his homily at Wednesday Mass in Rome, Francis emphasized the importance of "doing good" as a principle that unites all humanity, and a "culture of encounter" to support peace.

Using scripture from the Gospel of Mark, Francis explained how upset Jesus' disciples were that someone outside their group was doing good, according to a report from Vatican Radio.

“They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of ​​possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation”

Pope Francis went further in his sermon to say:

"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

Responding to the leader of the Roman Catholic church's homily, Father James Martin, S.J. wrote in an email to The Huffington Post:

"Pope Francis is saying, more clearly than ever before, that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for everyone. That's always been a Christian belief. You can find St. Paul saying in the First Letter to Timothy that Jesus gave himself as a "ransom for all." But rarely do you hear it said by Catholics so forcefully, and with such evident joy. And in this era of religious controversies, it's a timely reminder that God cannot be confined to our narrow categories."

Of course, not all Christians believe that those who don't believe will be redeemed, and the Pope's words may spark memories of the deep divisions from the Protestant reformation over the belief in redemption through grace versus redemption through works.

The pope's comment has also struck a chord on Reddit, where it is the second most-shared piece.

More from Reuters:

Atheists should be seen as good people if they do good, Pope Francis said on Wednesday in his latest urging that people of all religions - or no religion - work together.

The leader of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics made his comments in the homily of his morning Mass in his residence, a daily event where he speaks without prepared comments.

He told the story of a Catholic who asked a priest if even atheists had been redeemed by Jesus.

"Even them, everyone," the pope answered, according to Vatican Radio. "We all have the duty to do good," he said.

"Just do good and we'll find a meeting point," the pope said in a hypothetical conversation in which someone told a priest: "But I don't believe. I'm an atheist."

Francis's reaching out to atheists and people who belong to no religion is a marked contrast to the attitude of former Pope Benedict, who sometimes left non-Catholics feeling that he saw them as second-class believers.
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:18 PM   #136
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The Old Testament doesn't count. Except those couple parts that we say. But not those parts that are all mean and junk that you guys are talking about.
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:20 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
In fairness to King_Chief_Fan and others, by pointing out the atrocities and contradictions in the Bible we are challenging their faith in a way that would cause any devout believer to be extremely uncomfortable. I don't do this lightly.
Thanks for that. It is good to get challenged as it requires us to get deeper in the thought and in our soul and in our Book and other reference materials. It strengthens us.
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8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:23 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
But honestly, I just don't understand how anyone could believe any of it. It's no more believable than Zeus...
Not trying to change your mind, but i thought this would be a good place for a story of mine, i might've told it years ago but here it is...

When i was 15 a metalhead friend of mine had an extreme conversion to Christianity after some very serious troubles in life, dude was an AWESOME guitar player, had a MASSIVE of collection metal records, all kinds of great stuff that he burned in a big pile, wouldnt even let me have them.

Well, i was still full on sex, drugs and rock n roll, but some time after his conversion he conned me into going to his church to see a famous faith healer who'd been on Billy Graham several times etc, i didnt want to but went ahead out of curiosity, plus i had a bad ailment and thought "what the hell, couldnt hurt"

From the time i was ten or so i'd had warts, big ones all over my hands and arms, one was as big around as a nickel, Mom had done everything she could to help, the doctors burned them off twice and froze them off once in the course of a year, yet they grew back each time only bigger, it sucked, i used to do all kinds of weird things to hide them from girls, it was a major problem for me.

So anyway, we go see this guy and at the end he asks people who need help to come up, he goes down the line and gets to me in my Motley Crue t-shirt that i wore to church lol, he asked the problem, looked at them then asked me to bow my head as he said a super quick little prayer, then moved on, this was about 8 at night.

The very next morning they were COMPLETELY gone, totally gone, i couldnt believe my eyes, i noticed it before i even got out of bed then went yelling into the living room to tell Mom... and thats it, they were made to disappear literally overnight and havent returned since, i still get the chills thinking about it, God cured me overnight and there certainly wasnt any "power of suggestion" or faith at work either, i wasnt interested in being Christian at that point in my life, in fact, i think i went home and got stoned that night.

Just thought i'd share that story.
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:25 PM   #139
RedNeckRaider RedNeckRaider is offline
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
In fairness to King_Chief_Fan and others, by pointing out the atrocities and contradictions in the Bible we are challenging their faith in a way that would cause any devout believer to be extremely uncomfortable. I don't do this lightly.

I remember a time when I thought all of the problems of the world would go away if only everyone would convert to my religion (Catholicism) and let the pope run things. It was a difficult journey to change my thinking about such a fundamental belief. For me it was the right thing to do, but I recognize that it's not necessarily the best thing for everyone. I'm willing to respect people who believe differently from what I do, although I will fight like hell if they attempt to implement government policy that supports their beliefs to the detriment of mine (example: teaching religious beliefs in science classes in public schools).
I stay respectful but if someone wishes to enter into the arena of discussion I will not pull punches. I support freedom of religion and their right to believe as they choose. I also have put a good amount of effort into researching this subject and have drawn my conclusions from it~
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:31 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by SLAG View Post
Well you know it was bound to happen - I am going to chime in on this:

First - To Buc and AC - You're both right but you're fighting too hard at each other to recognize this.
Um, how is Buc right? She claimed that the Pope was a heretic and that I was wrong for saying that what he said was anything ground breaking or new.

She has since tried to weasel out of her initial points but that is the basic crux of things. I have since been proven correct. Nothing he said should really shock anyone and Buc was a ****ing moron for saying his comments were heretical.
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:32 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by King_Chief_Fan View Post
Thanks for that. It is good to get challenged as it requires us to get deeper in the thought and in our soul and in our Book and other reference materials. It strengthens us.
You're one of the good ones. Appreciate the ability to have a real discussion. Too rare these days.
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:34 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by otherstar View Post
I'm going to school everyone on this thread.

My credentials: BA and MA in Philsophy specializing in the thought of St. Thomas Aquinas. Minor in Theology from a Catholic college (21 years of Catholic education). Two years as a Benedictine brother. I've read the Catcehism of the Catholic Church from cover to cover and countless theology books.

1. Pope Francis' remarks were taken out of context from an extemporaneous homily at a daily mass and carry the lowest level of Papal authority.

2. NO Pope prior to Pope Francis celebrated mass daily in public. When they did preside at mass and preached a homily it was always a PREVIOUSLY PREPARED and vetted text. Those homilies were always published afterwards and are available on the Vatican Website.

3. Because Pope Francis' homilies are off-the-cuff, there is no text for him to review/correct/revise pre-publication, nor is there any way of going back to verify what he actually said. Therefore, it is very easy for the secular media to blow things out of proportion.

4. According to the incomplete, and poorly transcribed text of the homily in question, Pope Francis affirms that we are all capable of doing good things and that Christ has opened the door to REDEMPTION (a different notion than SALVATION, as we shall see).

5. Even in the Old Testament, the command was to "do good" or, more accurately, to "be good" and follow the 10 Commandments (Jesus did NOT abrogate the 10 Commandments).

6. The Pope said, “And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace.” -- this is basic philosopical ethics borrowed from Aristotle and based in...wait for it...REASON, not a principle to be held by FAITH. The notion that people can do good, can be ethical, is much older than Christianity and can, in fact, be held by anybody...believer or not.

7. The Pope also said in the same homily, “If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good."

8. The Pope isn't talking about heaven at all...he is talking about Peace on Earth! The comments about the athiest doing good, and "meeting there" were taken out of context by the press (like that never happens) and the Pope was made to sound like he said athiests can go to heaven when in fact what he said was that even athiests need to do good so that all people can live in earth in peace and harmony.

9. SALVATION vs. REDEPMTION: Redemption means simply that Christ made it possible for people to be saved (to go to Heaven). Salvation means that we have actually made it to heaven. There is a BIG difference from being able to go to heaven and actually being there. The Catholic Church teaches that we have the hope of Salvation through the redemptive sacrifice of Christ upon the Cross, but that we do not actually know if we are saved until after we die!
Great post. So to recap what I have said in this thread...

#1 Nothing Pope Francis said was really anything ground breakingly new
#2 Anyone saying that what he said was heretical has no clue what they are talking about
#3 The article was poorly written
#4 Nowhere did the pope mention SALVATION he was speaking of REDEMPTION a totally different concept.

Did I get anything wrong there?
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:34 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by King_Chief_Fan View Post
Well, you quoted only part of what I said but that made me more curious.
I got a little more education on the matter and
A co-worker lead me to this information. It is in a post following the one you referenced.

Then there is the witness of our consciences. Though defective since the fall, they still function and give us a sense of a moral order, a morality that we generally know to be correct, even though we fail to live up to it. Paul, in his treatment of God's righteous judgment, tells us that 'Gentiles, who do not have the law...show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness'.

Hence there is no-one that is totally ignorant of God. All of us have some knowledge of him and will be judged according to that. God 'will give to each person according to what he has done' not according to what he had no opportunity to do

I think that gives me some comfort for those who have had no chance or opportunity.

Let me simply say that I am very impressed by Pope Francis and find his statement today to be very refreshing. Until today I had thought (and Catholics I know had confirmed, perhaps mistakenly or in ignorance) that there was NO salvation but through the Catholic Church and the sacraments, etc. etc. I found that to be an utterly absurd and unsupportable concept. If the Catholic Church plans to modify that a bit, I can only imagine that it would be to their benefit.
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:36 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Yeah right! It just doesn't extend to our FP, killing in war or stealing other people's money to tech in those schools. That's why you touted Romney.

Uh huh! Some Buddhist you are. But then if you really were for peace, that would be implement govt policy based on your beliefs too.
When did I claim to be a Buddhist?
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:37 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Seems like the rest of the thread shows that you were actually out of your depth. There's a reason this sort of accusation is called projection.
You ****ing ignorant wretch. You are too stupid to realize how completely moronic you have been. It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad.

No amount of back tracking is going to change the FACT that you called the Pope a heretic and said I was wrong for saying nothing he said was really new.

Sounds an awful lot like I was dead on in my assertion that nothing said was new and that you were a ****ing retard for claiming it was heretical.

How do you not see how ignorant you look right now?
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:39 PM   #146
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Then you have been seriously misled.

See guys, this is what I am talking about. People who think they know something about the Catholic Church that spout off as if it is fact when in reality they are clueless. It frankly amazes me that you want to wade into this argument with me. I'll warn you right now, you're far far far out of your depth on this.

Nothing she's not used to...
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:40 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by King_Chief_Fan View Post
Well, you quoted only part of what I said but that made me more curious.
I got a little more education on the matter and
A co-worker lead me to this information. It is in a post following the one you referenced.

Then there is the witness of our consciences. Though defective since the fall, they still function and give us a sense of a moral order, a morality that we generally know to be correct, even though we fail to live up to it. Paul, in his treatment of God's righteous judgment, tells us that 'Gentiles, who do not have the law...show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness'.

Hence there is no-one that is totally ignorant of God. All of us have some knowledge of him and will be judged according to that. God 'will give to each person according to what he has done' not according to what he had no opportunity to do

I think that gives me some comfort for those who have had no chance or opportunity.
Thanks for sharing this (And I found that article and read it. Interesting argument).

Awful lot of interpretation required to get that meaning out of Paul's message to the Romans, though. Especially when compared to a lot of the other very plain statements throughout the new testament.
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:40 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by scott free View Post
Not trying to change your mind, but i thought this would be a good place for a story of mine, i might've told it years ago but here it is...

When i was 15 a metalhead friend of mine had an extreme conversion to Christianity after some very serious troubles in life, dude was an AWESOME guitar player, had a MASSIVE of collection metal records, all kinds of great stuff that he burned in a big pile, wouldnt even let me have them.

Well, i was still full on sex, drugs and rock n roll, but some time after his conversion he conned me into going to his church to see a famous faith healer who'd been on Billy Graham several times etc, i didnt want to but went ahead out of curiosity, plus i had a bad ailment and thought "what the hell, couldnt hurt"

From the time i was ten or so i'd had warts, big ones all over my hands and arms, one was as big around as a nickel, Mom had done everything she could to help, the doctors burned them off twice and froze them off once in the course of a year, yet they grew back each time only bigger, it sucked, i used to do all kinds of weird things to hide them from girls, it was a major problem for me.

So anyway, we go see this guy and at the end he asks people who need help to come up, he goes down the line and gets to me in my Motley Crue t-shirt that i wore to church lol, he asked the problem, looked at them then asked me to bow my head as he said a super quick little prayer, then moved on, this was about 8 at night.

The very next morning they were COMPLETELY gone, totally gone, i couldnt believe my eyes, i noticed it before i even got out of bed then went yelling into the living room to tell Mom... and thats it, they were made to disappear literally overnight and havent returned since, i still get the chills thinking about it, God cured me overnight and there certainly wasnt any "power of suggestion" or faith at work either, i wasnt interested in being Christian at that point in my life, in fact, i think i went home and got stoned that night.

Just thought i'd share that story.


I think in ancient Greece Hephaestus was the god of warts...
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:41 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by scott free View Post
Not trying to change your mind, but i thought this would be a good place for a story of mine, i might've told it years ago but here it is...

When i was 15 a metalhead friend of mine had an extreme conversion to Christianity after some very serious troubles in life, dude was an AWESOME guitar player, had a MASSIVE of collection metal records, all kinds of great stuff that he burned in a big pile, wouldnt even let me have them.

Well, i was still full on sex, drugs and rock n roll, but some time after his conversion he conned me into going to his church to see a famous faith healer who'd been on Billy Graham several times etc, i didnt want to but went ahead out of curiosity, plus i had a bad ailment and thought "what the hell, couldnt hurt"

From the time i was ten or so i'd had warts, big ones all over my hands and arms, one was as big around as a nickel, Mom had done everything she could to help, the doctors burned them off twice and froze them off once in the course of a year, yet they grew back each time only bigger, it sucked, i used to do all kinds of weird things to hide them from girls, it was a major problem for me.

So anyway, we go see this guy and at the end he asks people who need help to come up, he goes down the line and gets to me in my Motley Crue t-shirt that i wore to church lol, he asked the problem, looked at them then asked me to bow my head as he said a super quick little prayer, then moved on, this was about 8 at night.

The very next morning they were COMPLETELY gone, totally gone, i couldnt believe my eyes, i noticed it before i even got out of bed then went yelling into the living room to tell Mom... and thats it, they were made to disappear literally overnight and havent returned since, i still get the chills thinking about it, God cured me overnight and there certainly wasnt any "power of suggestion" or faith at work either, i wasnt interested in being Christian at that point in my life, in fact, i think i went home and got stoned that night.

Just thought i'd share that story.
Neat story. But for every story like that, I can't help but think of acquaintances who've lost young children to cancer and leukemia, who spent years praying daily only to see their child die in pain. Prayers that if answered would have given them a life to experience with their child. Families who couldn't cope with the loss of their child, so much so that it led to a breakup of the family and eventual suicide of the family members from grief.

A God that could ignore that yet prove their existence to someone else by way of healing warts, isn't really a God I feel that I'd have much in common with.

Not trashing your story. Just pointing out the other side to claims of faith healing.
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:42 PM   #150
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
You ****ing ignorant wretch. You are too stupid to realize how completely moronic you have been. It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad.

No amount of back tracking is going to change the FACT that you called the Pope a heretic and said I was wrong for saying nothing he said was really new.

Sounds an awful lot like I was dead on in my assertion that nothing said was new and that you were a ****ing retard for claiming it was heretical.

How do you not see how ignorant you look right now?

Nothing she's not used to...
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