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Old 05-25-2013, 08:50 PM  
Dave Lane Dave Lane is offline
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Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

It's all about works, just as it always has been and always should be. The pope says so!

Pope Francis rocked some religious and atheist minds today when he declared that everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists.

During his homily at Wednesday Mass in Rome, Francis emphasized the importance of "doing good" as a principle that unites all humanity, and a "culture of encounter" to support peace.

Using scripture from the Gospel of Mark, Francis explained how upset Jesus' disciples were that someone outside their group was doing good, according to a report from Vatican Radio.

“They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of ​​possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation”

Pope Francis went further in his sermon to say:

"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

Responding to the leader of the Roman Catholic church's homily, Father James Martin, S.J. wrote in an email to The Huffington Post:

"Pope Francis is saying, more clearly than ever before, that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for everyone. That's always been a Christian belief. You can find St. Paul saying in the First Letter to Timothy that Jesus gave himself as a "ransom for all." But rarely do you hear it said by Catholics so forcefully, and with such evident joy. And in this era of religious controversies, it's a timely reminder that God cannot be confined to our narrow categories."

Of course, not all Christians believe that those who don't believe will be redeemed, and the Pope's words may spark memories of the deep divisions from the Protestant reformation over the belief in redemption through grace versus redemption through works.

The pope's comment has also struck a chord on Reddit, where it is the second most-shared piece.

More from Reuters:

Atheists should be seen as good people if they do good, Pope Francis said on Wednesday in his latest urging that people of all religions - or no religion - work together.

The leader of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics made his comments in the homily of his morning Mass in his residence, a daily event where he speaks without prepared comments.

He told the story of a Catholic who asked a priest if even atheists had been redeemed by Jesus.

"Even them, everyone," the pope answered, according to Vatican Radio. "We all have the duty to do good," he said.

"Just do good and we'll find a meeting point," the pope said in a hypothetical conversation in which someone told a priest: "But I don't believe. I'm an atheist."

Francis's reaching out to atheists and people who belong to no religion is a marked contrast to the attitude of former Pope Benedict, who sometimes left non-Catholics feeling that he saw them as second-class believers.
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Old 05-27-2013, 07:52 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Listen bitch, no, you don't know shit about my Catholic knowledge. I have 13 years of Catholic education, was raised Catholic, my best friend is a Catholic scholar who studied under Cardinal Von Schonborn at Frisborg. I have had countless classes in Catholic philosophy. I've studied the works of Mortimer J Adler. I have been steeped in these things my entire life and UNLIKE YOU.. I have a reasonable understanding of them.
I do too. And I know an expert on Catholic dogma, Canon Law and the Bible as well. This has always been emphasized by him.
I noticed there was no mention of Pope Francis speaking ex cathedra on this too. Anyhow, the OP isn't really a complete statement of what Francis said.
The additional information clarifies his meaning. However, my main disagreement with you, should Francis have meant it as in the OP, was that this view has been accepted for a long time.
That is patently false.

Feeling grumpy today or are you applying what this religion teaches on how to treat others.
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Old 05-27-2013, 07:53 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Warrior5 View Post
I've been a Protestant my entire life; every church I've belonged to has taught that faith without works is dead faith (James 2).

What Protestants are you referring to?
The ones that say, only acceptance of Christ is necessary for salvation.
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Old 05-27-2013, 08:16 AM   #48
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Accepted for a long time? NOPE!

Traditionalist Catholics reject some of the pronouncements made at Vatican II,which promoted a new ecumenism which changed key points of the faith to adapt to the modern world. They see such alterations aiming for a false pan-Christian religious unity which does not require non-Catholics to convert to the Catholic faith. They see this as contradicting the teachings of the Bible and other documents by earlier Popes such as Pope Pius XI. They feel it places an inappropriate emphasis on the "dignity of man."

AC's guy is from the changed rules. My guy is pre-1962.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council
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Old 05-27-2013, 08:26 AM   #49
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I am not putting this up, to support this writer's interpretation but to show the view by the rift over Vatican II and ecumenism. I think it doesn't address the true problems with parts of Vatican II, but spends more time on respect for others. You can do that without compromising integrity of the faith.
Did the Second Vatican Council contradict Church Tradition in its teachings on ecumenism? Many traditionalist Catholics — among them, many members of the Society of St. Pius X — would say yes. If they are correct, then the Catholic Church has a serious problem: Vatican II could not be legitimate, since a legitimate ecumenical council may develop but may not contradict the earlier dogmatic teaching of the Church.
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Old 05-27-2013, 08:38 AM   #50
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Nope, not a long term or ancient position by the RCC.

Debate continues over correct interpretation of article in Vatican II document
In the years and decades preceding the Second Vatican Council (1962-65), the common assumption of Catholics and the official teaching of the Catholic Church was that the Catholic Church is "the one, true Church of Christ."

All other churches and ecclesial communities (although they were never referred to as such during this preconciliar period) were simply regarded as "false churches," completely outside the Body of Christ and, therefore, beyond the pale of salvation.

Only gradually did the Catholic Church of modern times come to recognize officially the possibility of salvation for non-Catholic Christians and then for non-Christians and even agnostics and atheists.

Vatican II decisively changed that earlier mentality and doctrine in its Decree on Ecumenism, which viewed the goal of the ecumenical movement as the restoration of "full communion with the Catholic Church" (n. 3, my italics). This is so because those who have been "properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."

The differences between separated Christians "exist in varying degrees." It is not all or nothing, as the preconciliar theology construed it.

The question of how the Catholic Church is related to other Christian communities in the Body of Christ came to a head in the controversy over what has proved to be one of the most debated texts in the entire corpus of Vatican II documents, namely, article 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church.
From Catholic Courier
http://www.catholiccourier.com/comme...n-ii-document/
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Old 05-27-2013, 08:54 AM   #51
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Traditional Catholics upset with Pope’s actions
VATICAN CITY – Pope Francis has won over many hearts and minds with his simple style and focus on serving the world’s poorest, but he has devastated traditionalist Catholics who adored his predecessor, Benedict XVI, for restoring much of the traditional pomp to the papacy.

Francis’ decision to disregard church law and wash the feet of two girls – a Serbian Muslim and an Italian Catholic – during a Holy Thursday ritual has become something of the final straw, evidence that Francis has little or no interest in one of the key priorities of Benedict’s papacy: reviving the pre-Vatican II traditions of the Catholic Church.

One of the most-read traditionalist blogs, Rorate Caeli, reacted to the foot-washing ceremony by declaring the death of Benedict’s eight-year project to correct what he considered the botched interpretations of the Second Vatican Council’s modernizing reforms.
I expected this reaction. I would not be saved under the traditional view but I see earlier views to be closer to the original versions.
http://www.daily-chronicle.com/2013/...tions/atldl9w/
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Old 05-27-2013, 08:59 AM   #52
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6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
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Old 05-27-2013, 08:59 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
The ones that say, only acceptance of Christ is necessary for salvation.
BEP - that isn't what your first post said.
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Old 05-27-2013, 09:03 AM   #54
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their punishment is eternity in heaven. suck it dave!
Surrounded by God and his angels would be pure hell on Dave! Imagine an eternity of being wronged.
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Old 05-27-2013, 09:04 AM   #55
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BEP - that isn't what your first post said.
My first post was about this not being old news or an old position would be a better choice of words.

It's an answer to your question though. I don't know the denominations, I just have heard that said by non-Catholic Christians, such as my neighbor, others I met when in school and even on this board.
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Old 05-27-2013, 09:06 AM   #56
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That is actually kind of refreshing, considering the number of religions/sects/cults who teach that 99.9% of the population is damned to hell because they don't believe exactly what that particular religion/sect/cult believes.

As AustinChief said, this isn't really new for the Catholic church. I remember a priest telling my 4th grade class in Catholic school pretty much the same thing several decades ago. It's a nice departure from those who insist that you could brutally rape and murder all the people you want, but you'll be enjoying eternal bliss in heaven as long as you repent and accept Christ one millisecond before you die, but if you find it difficult to believe that Noah built a boat and put dinosaurs on it, you're going to be tortured forever in the non-consuming fires of hell.
Several decades ago was also post Vatican II, which began such changes. My Catholic education was post Vatican II but I was still taught others could not be saved including Jews, Muslims and Protestants.
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Old 05-27-2013, 10:26 AM   #57
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Old 05-27-2013, 10:38 AM   #58
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What does the word Catholic mean? Hint: katholicos
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Old 05-27-2013, 10:55 AM   #59
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Old 05-27-2013, 12:22 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
The ones that say, only acceptance of Christ is necessary for salvation.
That's a sort of a shorthand that we've developed to sum up the Five Solas, which were a building block of the Reformation. We say that salvation is offered: By Faith alone, by Scripture alone, by Grace alone, by Christ alone (or through Christ alone), for the glory of God alone. When we say that accepting Christ as our savior is all that's necessary for salvation, we're saying that while riding firmly in the saddle of the Solas.

We say that something else entirely, which we call sanctification, is that which is brought about by works.

In theory I suppose it sounds important. It split the hell out of the church. In practice it often sounds to me as though we're splitting hairs.

It's important to the Protestant position that while the choice to accept salvation is ours, all the work of salvation is God's.

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