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Old 05-25-2013, 09:50 PM  
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Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

It's all about works, just as it always has been and always should be. The pope says so!

Pope Francis rocked some religious and atheist minds today when he declared that everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists.

During his homily at Wednesday Mass in Rome, Francis emphasized the importance of "doing good" as a principle that unites all humanity, and a "culture of encounter" to support peace.

Using scripture from the Gospel of Mark, Francis explained how upset Jesus' disciples were that someone outside their group was doing good, according to a report from Vatican Radio.

“They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of ​​possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation”

Pope Francis went further in his sermon to say:

"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

Responding to the leader of the Roman Catholic church's homily, Father James Martin, S.J. wrote in an email to The Huffington Post:

"Pope Francis is saying, more clearly than ever before, that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for everyone. That's always been a Christian belief. You can find St. Paul saying in the First Letter to Timothy that Jesus gave himself as a "ransom for all." But rarely do you hear it said by Catholics so forcefully, and with such evident joy. And in this era of religious controversies, it's a timely reminder that God cannot be confined to our narrow categories."

Of course, not all Christians believe that those who don't believe will be redeemed, and the Pope's words may spark memories of the deep divisions from the Protestant reformation over the belief in redemption through grace versus redemption through works.

The pope's comment has also struck a chord on Reddit, where it is the second most-shared piece.

More from Reuters:

Atheists should be seen as good people if they do good, Pope Francis said on Wednesday in his latest urging that people of all religions - or no religion - work together.

The leader of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics made his comments in the homily of his morning Mass in his residence, a daily event where he speaks without prepared comments.

He told the story of a Catholic who asked a priest if even atheists had been redeemed by Jesus.

"Even them, everyone," the pope answered, according to Vatican Radio. "We all have the duty to do good," he said.

"Just do good and we'll find a meeting point," the pope said in a hypothetical conversation in which someone told a priest: "But I don't believe. I'm an atheist."

Francis's reaching out to atheists and people who belong to no religion is a marked contrast to the attitude of former Pope Benedict, who sometimes left non-Catholics feeling that he saw them as second-class believers.
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:47 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by mikey23545 View Post
Why would Dave Lane care what the Pope says?
Looks like he's on the path to conversion.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:10 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
works are as filthy rags....they will not bring an individual salvation
In other words, human beings must believe what you believe. Otherwise, they are doomed to burn in hell.

Let's suppose that I am one of the billion people born in China. My parents are Buddhists, as were my grandparents, as were my great-grandparents. I'm a practicing Buddhist, because that's the only thing I know, and it's the only thing I've ever been exposed to. According to the teachings of most Protestant denominations (and Catholics who believe what BEP apparently believes), I have ZERO shot at heaven. Zero. Zip. Nada. I'm going to burn FOREVER in hell. I'm going to be tortured for eternity, and it doesn't matter how good a person I am or how many good works I do. It doesn't matter if I spend my entire life feeding orphans, saving babies, taking care of the sick, and treating everyone around me with kindness and compassion. I'm destined for eternal damnation and torture because I don't believe in the Bible, even if I've never heard of the freaking Bible.

And how do we know this? How do we know that we must believe what's said in the Bible in order to be saved? Because it says so, right there in the Bible! Never mind that the Bible also says that keeping slaves is just fine and that raping all the of women and killing all of the men in the country you just conquered is perfectly fine too. All of the atrocities, inconsistencies, and downright unbelievable fantasies contained in the Bible aren't the point here.

The point is that using the Bible as evidence to support your conclusion that you must believe what's written in the Bible is the most circular argument that could ever be made. The arrogance and simple-mindedness of that is astounding.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:11 AM   #78
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Most denominations allow the openly gay and will perform one than one marriage if someone gets divorced and wants to remarry.
RCC allows annulments tho'...and loosened the rules on them too.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:13 AM   #79
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I'll warn you right now, you're far far far out of your depth on this.
Seems like the rest of the thread shows that you were actually out of your depth. There's a reason this sort of accusation is called projection.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:14 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
works are as filthy rags....they will not bring an individual salvation
In your case, I believe you believe that.
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:17 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
In other words, human beings must believe what you believe. Otherwise, they are doomed to burn in hell.

Let's suppose that I am one of the billion people born in China. My parents are Buddhists, as were my grandparents, as were my great-grandparents. I'm a practicing Buddhist, because that's the only thing I know, and it's the only thing I've ever been exposed to. According to the teachings of most Protestant denominations (and Catholics who believe what BEP apparently believes), I have ZERO shot at heaven. Zero. Zip. Nada. I'm going to burn FOREVER in hell. I'm going to be tortured for eternity, and it doesn't matter how good a person I am or how many good works I do. It doesn't matter if I spend my entire life feeding orphans, saving babies, taking care of the sick, and treating everyone around me with kindness and compassion. I'm destined for eternal damnation and torture because I don't believe in the Bible, even if I've never heard of the freaking Bible.

And how do we know this? How do we know that we must believe what's said in the Bible in order to be saved? Because it says so, right there in the Bible! Never mind that the Bible also says that keeping slaves is just fine and that raping all the of women and killing all of the men in the country you just conquered is perfectly fine too. All of the atrocities, inconsistencies, and downright unbelievable fantasies contained in the Bible aren't the point here.

The point is that using the Bible as evidence to support your conclusion that you must believe what's written in the Bible is the most circular argument that could ever be made. The arrogance and simple-mindedness of that is astounding.


blahblahblah...as long as you keep reading the Bible like a Hardy Boys mystery, it won't ever make sense...that's on you....and others must believe like I do? LOL..dude this is about internal...you're stuck on the external.

....as far as people who have never heard, and that number prolly isn't as big as you think, God looks to their heart, not works.

as far as burning in hell, ya, the wages of sin is death..you can't/won't stop/change that from happening.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:20 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
In other words, human beings must believe what you believe. Otherwise, they are doomed to burn in hell.
Exactly. Catholicism is a dogma-based religion. That means you are compelled to believe what are deemed to be dogma if you're a member. You don't have to join or be a member though, which your post seems to "believe."

Quote:
Let's suppose that I am one of the billion people born in China. My parents are Buddhists, as were my grandparents, as were my great-grandparents. I'm a practicing Buddhist, because that's the only thing I know, and it's the only thing I've ever been exposed to. According to the teachings of most Protestant denominations (and Catholics who believe what BEP apparently believes), I have ZERO shot at heaven. Zero. Zip. Nada. I'm going to burn FOREVER in hell. I'm going to be tortured for eternity, and it doesn't matter how good a person I am or how many good works I do. It doesn't matter if I spend my entire life feeding orphans, saving babies, taking care of the sick, and treating everyone around me with kindness and compassion. I'm destined for eternal damnation and torture because I don't believe in the Bible, even if I've never heard of the freaking Bible.

And how do we know this? How do we know that we must believe what's said in the Bible in order to be saved? Because it says so, right there in the Bible! Never mind that the Bible also says that keeping slaves is just fine and that raping all the of women and killing all of the men in the country you just conquered is perfectly fine too. All of the atrocities, inconsistencies, and downright unbelievable fantasies contained in the Bible aren't the point here.
You know what is so silly about the rest of your post? You act as if you're being literally forced to believe this, and as such will suffer for it, if you don't. Either you believe in your current religion or you really don't. There is no harm to you if you're not a member of this faith, especially if you think you've found the right path. There are many religions that feel their path is the only path to salvation. BIG deal!

Didn't Christ say something like the road to destruction is broad but the path to salvation is narrow with few feet walking upon it?

Quote:
The point is that using the Bible as evidence to support your conclusion that you must believe what's written in the Bible is the most circular argument that could ever be made. The arrogance and simple-mindedness of that is astounding.
Oh just stop! Why don't you just allow this church to believe and teach as they want? No one is forcing you. Your last sentence is just bigotry or intolerance of what that church believes imo.

Oh, and don't ever use the word "believes" for me here. I am not a Catholic anymore. Have said so numerous times. I do understand many of points of the faith having been raised in it and been surrounded by Catholic scholars. You don't see me getting all upset that this doctrine will hurt me....as you are. I'm respectful of other's religious beliefs.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:23 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
blahblahblah...as long as you keep reading the Bible like a Hardy Boys mystery, it won't ever make sense...that's on you....and others must believe like I do? LOL..dude this is about internal...you're stuck on the external.

....as far as people who have never heard, and that number prolly isn't as big as you think, God looks to their heart, not works.

as far as burning in hell, ya, the wages of sin is death..you can't/won't stop/change that from happening.
So your counter-argument is "read the Bible".

Got it.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:25 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
So your counter-argument is "read the Bible".

Got it.
No. My "counter argument" is God looks at the heart of those who have never heard.

you can read the Bible all you want..if you aren't seeking, nothing will be revealed...it's not rocket surgery...
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:25 AM   #85
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In your case, I believe you believe that.
You say that like there's something wrong with it.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:29 AM   #86
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I don't see the significance. Haven't Christians always said Christ died for all, even the Muslim and the Jew? I don't think the Pope is saying they're all going to Heaven, only that they were all "paid for". Which is redeemed.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:30 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
You say that like there's something wrong with it.
my guess is dave would like to think it is about works, because then it's about him....
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:30 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Exactly. Catholicism is a dogma-based religion. That means you are compelled to believe what are deemed to be dogma.
You don't have to join or be a member.



You know what is so silly about the rest of your post? You act as if you're being literally forced to believe this, and as such will suffer for it. Either you believe in your current religion or you really don't. There is no harm to you if you're not a member of this faith, especially if you think you've found the right path. There are many religions that feel their path is the only path to salvation.

Didn't Christ say something like the road to destruction is broad but the path to salvation is narrow with few feet walking upon it?




Oh just stop! Why don't you just allow this church to believe and teach as they want? No one is forcing you. Your last sentence is just bigotry, imo.

Oh, and don't ever use the word "believes" for me here. I am not a Catholic anymore. Have said so numerous times. I do understand many of points of the faith having been raised in it and been surrounded by Catholic scholars. You don't see me getting all upset that this doctrine will hurt me....as you are.
I was raised in the Catholic faith. I went to Catholic school, including Daily Mass for several years. I have a pretty good understanding of Catholic doctrine as well.

I'm not upset at all with Catholic doctrine. You and I apparently have different ideas regarding what Catholic doctrine really is, and I'm fine with that. I do know that I applaud what Pope Francis said regarding people with different beliefs, and I also know that our parish priest told us the same thing 40 years ago.

I'm fine with anyone choosing to believe whatever they want to believe. However, that doesn't stop me from pointing out that I don't find circular arguments and faith-based arguments to be very persuasive.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:30 AM   #89
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Well, gee whiz, another non Catholic Christian thinks similarly!

The NARROW Way
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
There is a temptation amongst evangelical leaders to want to give in to more ecumenical thinking. Some teach that a person could find Jesus despite being part of a false religion that rejects Jesus as Messiah. This conclusion is firmly anti-biblical, but it is much more palatable to the world which despises those of us who teach that there is only one way to God, namely, Jesus Christ. They hate this kind of thinking, calling it narrow-minded.




http://www.relevantbibleteaching.com...c_id=140001239
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:32 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
No. My "counter argument" is God looks at the heart of those who have never heard.

you can read the Bible all you want..if you aren't seeking, nothing will be revealed...it's not rocket surgery...
If you are saying that God looks at the heart of those who have never heard, and that those people can also achieve salvation, then I apologize for misunderstanding and misrepresenting your position.
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A new website that shows member-created construction site listings that need fill or have excess fill. Dirt Monkey @ https://DirtMonkey.net
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