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Old 05-25-2013, 09:50 PM  
Dave Lane Dave Lane is offline
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Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

It's all about works, just as it always has been and always should be. The pope says so!

Pope Francis rocked some religious and atheist minds today when he declared that everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists.

During his homily at Wednesday Mass in Rome, Francis emphasized the importance of "doing good" as a principle that unites all humanity, and a "culture of encounter" to support peace.

Using scripture from the Gospel of Mark, Francis explained how upset Jesus' disciples were that someone outside their group was doing good, according to a report from Vatican Radio.

“They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of ​​possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation”

Pope Francis went further in his sermon to say:

"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

Responding to the leader of the Roman Catholic church's homily, Father James Martin, S.J. wrote in an email to The Huffington Post:

"Pope Francis is saying, more clearly than ever before, that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for everyone. That's always been a Christian belief. You can find St. Paul saying in the First Letter to Timothy that Jesus gave himself as a "ransom for all." But rarely do you hear it said by Catholics so forcefully, and with such evident joy. And in this era of religious controversies, it's a timely reminder that God cannot be confined to our narrow categories."

Of course, not all Christians believe that those who don't believe will be redeemed, and the Pope's words may spark memories of the deep divisions from the Protestant reformation over the belief in redemption through grace versus redemption through works.

The pope's comment has also struck a chord on Reddit, where it is the second most-shared piece.

More from Reuters:

Atheists should be seen as good people if they do good, Pope Francis said on Wednesday in his latest urging that people of all religions - or no religion - work together.

The leader of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics made his comments in the homily of his morning Mass in his residence, a daily event where he speaks without prepared comments.

He told the story of a Catholic who asked a priest if even atheists had been redeemed by Jesus.

"Even them, everyone," the pope answered, according to Vatican Radio. "We all have the duty to do good," he said.

"Just do good and we'll find a meeting point," the pope said in a hypothetical conversation in which someone told a priest: "But I don't believe. I'm an atheist."

Francis's reaching out to atheists and people who belong to no religion is a marked contrast to the attitude of former Pope Benedict, who sometimes left non-Catholics feeling that he saw them as second-class believers.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:32 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
If you are saying that God looks at the heart of those who have never heard, and that those people can also achieve salvation, then I apologize for misunderstanding and misrepresenting your position.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:35 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
No. My "counter argument" is God looks at the heart of those who have never heard.

you can read the Bible all you want..if you aren't seeking, nothing will be revealed...it's not rocket surgery...
So in your opinion, you can't get to heaven by reading the Bible. And you can't get to heaven by doing good things. And you're unable to define what is actually necessary to do so, in any intelligible way. But yet it's not rocket surgery? Cause that sounds like rocket surgery....
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:38 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
So in your opinion, you can't get to heaven by reading the Bible. ....
Never said that...but hey, don't let that stop you...
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:41 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
I was raised in the Catholic faith. I went to Catholic school, including Daily Mass for several years. I have a pretty good understanding of Catholic doctrine as well.
Actually there are many, many Catholics that don't really understand all the doctrines. I think your acceptance of what a certain priest claimed shows one in this thread.

I grew up with some myself. I just happened to come into contact with a Catholic scholar that pointed out some of them to me later in life as an adult. I actually understand it more as an adult now than I did when younger. There are also lots of cafeteria Catholics and Christmas/Easter Catholics.

There's even a scene in the movie The Godfather when a priest says very few actually are touched by actual Catholicism or know it. Something like that. It may be a movie but it has truth in it.

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I'm not upset at all with Catholic doctrine. You and I apparently have different ideas regarding what Catholic doctrine really is, and I'm fine with that. I do know that I applaud what Pope Francis said regarding people with different beliefs, and I also know that our parish priest told us the same thing 40 years ago.
Yeah, you do have a different idea, but on this one, you stand to be corrected imo.
Forty years ago, is still post Vatican II, which is when such ideas began to spread.

I've learned that just because a priest says something, doesn't make it true. It may just be his personal take or opinion. Did you see it in writing anywhere? A priest can pass on their own misunderstandings. Or you may not have understood him completely. The Catholic church has had to correct priests too. It had to declare Liberation Theology a heresy when it was spreading through Latin America. It happens. There are also some Marxist priests and nuns too. I've witnessed this.

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I'm fine with anyone choosing to believe whatever they want to believe. However, that doesn't stop me from pointing out that I don't find circular arguments and faith-based arguments to be very persuasive.
Except that you labeled it in a critical manner when you use words such a arrogant. Thinking something is an absolute truth as a matter of faith, is not arrogant.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:43 AM   #95
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I don't see the significance. Haven't Christians always said Christ died for all, even the Muslim and the Jew? I don't think the Pope is saying they're all going to Heaven, only that they were all "paid for". Which is redeemed.
People who are not a Catholic tend to not see this or feel this way.

The Pope did not say what you posted here though, as clarified by a few other posts.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:45 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
Never said that...but hey, don't let that stop you...
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you can read the Bible all you want..if you aren't seeking, nothing will be revealed...it's not rocket surgery...
You said that one can read the Bible all they want, but if they aren't "Seeking", then nothing will be revealed.

If that's not what you meant, then please explain it better. You're saying it's not rocket surgery, but you're unable to explain it in any way that makes any sense. Show me how it's not rocket surgery. Can you provide an answer that isn't your normal mysterious and meaningless one-liner babble?
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:47 AM   #97
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If you are saying that God looks at the heart of those who have never heard, and that those people can also achieve salvation, then I apologize for misunderstanding and misrepresenting your position.
I believe it was this idea that was re-clarified recently in the catechism but it's not exactly the same as the idea that started this thread. I forget the details but remember it being discussed.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:50 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
You said that one can read the Bible all they want, but if they aren't "Seeking", then nothing will be revealed.
and what exactly does that have to do with salvation, other than you putting words in my mouth? or taking my statement out of context?

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Old 05-28-2013, 10:55 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
and what excatly does that have to do with you putting words in my mouth?
I posted exactly what you wrote. If you meant something different than what you wrote, then please explain it further.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:58 AM   #100
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I posted exactly what you wrote. If you meant something different than what you wrote, then please explain it further.
there's nothing to explain....you made an erroneous assumption motivated by "one liner babble"
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:59 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
blahblahblah...as long as you keep reading the Bible like a Hardy Boys mystery, it won't ever make sense...that's on you....and others must believe like I do? LOL..dude this is about internal...you're stuck on the external.

....as far as people who have never heard, and that number prolly isn't as big as you think, God looks to their heart, not works.

as far as burning in hell, ya, the wages of sin is death..you can't/won't stop/change that from happening.
It's hard to reconcile the bolded part of your statement with the concept that the only way to the father and eternal life is through the son.

How big do you think the number is? It's in the billions (not just talking about today). Is that not enough?
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:02 AM   #102
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there's nothing to explain....you made a false claim.
Well OK then. If you don't want to or can't explain anything further, then that's your choice. But I was hoping for something other than the usual..
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:06 AM   #103
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Well OK then. If you don't want to or can't explain anything further, then that's your choice. But I was hoping for something other than the usual..
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:37 AM   #104
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In other words, human beings must believe what you believe. Otherwise, they are doomed to burn in hell.

Let's suppose that I am one of the billion people born in China. My parents are Buddhists, as were my grandparents, as were my great-grandparents. I'm a practicing Buddhist, because that's the only thing I know, and it's the only thing I've ever been exposed to. According to the teachings of most Protestant denominations (and Catholics who believe what BEP apparently believes), I have ZERO shot at heaven. Zero. Zip. Nada. I'm going to burn FOREVER in hell. I'm going to be tortured for eternity, and it doesn't matter how good a person I am or how many good works I do. It doesn't matter if I spend my entire life feeding orphans, saving babies, taking care of the sick, and treating everyone around me with kindness and compassion. I'm destined for eternal damnation and torture because I don't believe in the Bible, even if I've never heard of the freaking Bible.

And how do we know this? How do we know that we must believe what's said in the Bible in order to be saved? Because it says so, right there in the Bible! Never mind that the Bible also says that keeping slaves is just fine and that raping all the of women and killing all of the men in the country you just conquered is perfectly fine too. All of the atrocities, inconsistencies, and downright unbelievable fantasies contained in the Bible aren't the point here.

The point is that using the Bible as evidence to support your conclusion that you must believe what's written in the Bible is the most circular argument that could ever be made. The arrogance and simple-mindedness of that is astounding.
1st bolded: That is the way it works. However, it is the reason that the church supports and finances missionaries. It is how the Word is spread and how people become aware. You can imagine how difficult that is but thousands of people are called to God's service to do that.

2nd bolded: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...47008514,d.aWM
Will give you a little more insight about what the Bible says about slavery if interested
3rd bolded: there is no evidence that I could find that raping is looked upon as acceptable even though it happened
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:42 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by King_Chief_Fan View Post
1st bolded: That is the way it works. However, it is the reason that the church supports and finances missionaries. It is how the Word is spread and how people become aware. You can imagine how difficult that is but thousands of people are called to God's service to do that.

2nd bolded: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...47008514,d.aWM
Will give you a little more insight about what the Bible says about slavery if interested
3rd bolded: there is no evidence that I could find that raping is looked upon as acceptable even though it happened
So you're saying those who can only be exposed to the Christian religion through missionary work are just screwed if missionaries don't get to them?

Real loving god you got there. Sign me up.
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