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Old 05-25-2013, 08:50 PM  
Dave Lane Dave Lane is offline
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Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

It's all about works, just as it always has been and always should be. The pope says so!

Pope Francis rocked some religious and atheist minds today when he declared that everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists.

During his homily at Wednesday Mass in Rome, Francis emphasized the importance of "doing good" as a principle that unites all humanity, and a "culture of encounter" to support peace.

Using scripture from the Gospel of Mark, Francis explained how upset Jesus' disciples were that someone outside their group was doing good, according to a report from Vatican Radio.

“They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of ​​possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation”

Pope Francis went further in his sermon to say:

"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

Responding to the leader of the Roman Catholic church's homily, Father James Martin, S.J. wrote in an email to The Huffington Post:

"Pope Francis is saying, more clearly than ever before, that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for everyone. That's always been a Christian belief. You can find St. Paul saying in the First Letter to Timothy that Jesus gave himself as a "ransom for all." But rarely do you hear it said by Catholics so forcefully, and with such evident joy. And in this era of religious controversies, it's a timely reminder that God cannot be confined to our narrow categories."

Of course, not all Christians believe that those who don't believe will be redeemed, and the Pope's words may spark memories of the deep divisions from the Protestant reformation over the belief in redemption through grace versus redemption through works.

The pope's comment has also struck a chord on Reddit, where it is the second most-shared piece.

More from Reuters:

Atheists should be seen as good people if they do good, Pope Francis said on Wednesday in his latest urging that people of all religions - or no religion - work together.

The leader of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics made his comments in the homily of his morning Mass in his residence, a daily event where he speaks without prepared comments.

He told the story of a Catholic who asked a priest if even atheists had been redeemed by Jesus.

"Even them, everyone," the pope answered, according to Vatican Radio. "We all have the duty to do good," he said.

"Just do good and we'll find a meeting point," the pope said in a hypothetical conversation in which someone told a priest: "But I don't believe. I'm an atheist."

Francis's reaching out to atheists and people who belong to no religion is a marked contrast to the attitude of former Pope Benedict, who sometimes left non-Catholics feeling that he saw them as second-class believers.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:45 AM   #106
King_Chief_Fan King_Chief_Fan is offline
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Originally Posted by duncan_idaho View Post
So you're saying those who can only be exposed to the Christian religion through missionary work are just screwed if missionaries don't get to them?

Real loving god you got there. Sign me up.
Not saying anything about the Christian religion. Religion sometimes is the blame for all the hate.
God sent his Son to die for all of us.

Would be glad to sign you up as you are one of the ones who has heard but has chosen not to believe...so far.
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8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:48 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by duncan_idaho View Post
So you're saying those who can only be exposed to the Christian religion through missionary work are just screwed if missionaries don't get to them?

Real loving god you got there. Sign me up.
There isn't a clear cut answer on that but I bet GOD knows and everyone has a chance. GOD always sends a visitation of life before letting you go. If you end up in hell you will have denied him.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:57 AM   #108
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Well OK then. If you don't want to or can't explain anything further, then that's your choice. But I was hoping for something other than the usual..
it is ok..I don't have the desire or time to "explain" something that one...I never said...and two... you falsely ascribed to me from a statement you took out of context.

this isn't a new tactic for you.
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:05 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by King_Chief_Fan View Post
Not saying anything about the Christian religion. Religion sometimes is the blame for all the hate.
God sent his Son to die for all of us.

Would be glad to sign you up as you are one of the ones who has heard but has chosen not to believe...so far.
I heard. I believed. Then I stopped.

I don't blame the religion. I blame the higher power described in your book.
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:05 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN View Post
There isn't a clear cut answer on that but I bet GOD knows and everyone has a chance. GOD always sends a visitation of life before letting you go. If you end up in hell you will have denied him.
Please expand and expound upon your meaning here. I'm legitimately curious.
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:10 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by duncan_idaho View Post
I blame the higher power described in your book.
God isn't responsible for your choice.
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:18 AM   #112
King_Chief_Fan King_Chief_Fan is offline
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Originally Posted by duncan_idaho View Post
I heard. I believed. Then I stopped.

I don't blame the religion. I blame the higher power described in your book.
If you don't mind saying....how did that happen...or what happened?
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:28 AM   #113
King_Chief_Fan King_Chief_Fan is offline
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Originally Posted by duncan_idaho View Post
Please expand and expound upon your meaning here. I'm legitimately curious.
This isn't in response to your question but I think addresses the issue. Granted there is no real knowledge but some good conclusions as to the one below that comes from bethinking.org.:
General Revelation

Then there is the witness of our consciences. Though defective since the fall, they still function and give us a sense of a moral order, a morality that we generally know to be correct, even though we fail to live up to it. Paul, in his treatment of God's righteous judgment, tells us that 'Gentiles, who do not have the law...show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness'.[9]

Hence there is no-one that is totally ignorant of God. All of us have some knowledge of him and will be judged according to that. God 'will give to each person according to what he has done',[10] not according to what he had no opportunity to do.
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8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:33 AM   #114
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I'm no Catholic ( actually I'm not of any denomination - just Christian ) and as much as I've taken issue with the Catholic church on various stances, this very well may have been a simple issue of communication, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. According to the Bible, only through Christ can one be saved as the sacrifice of Jesus was for us all. How are you saved via Christ? Through faith & acceptance. How is faith different from belief? Simple - action. So I can see what he is saying in the light of say, someone who has never known Jesus, but there is no way to spin it in favor of those that actively deny him. So again, until further notice, I think this may be a communication issue as much as anything else, ie. I'll give the pope the benefit of the doubt.
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:43 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by King_Chief_Fan View Post
1st bolded: That is the way it works. However, it is the reason that the church supports and finances missionaries. It is how the Word is spread and how people become aware. You can imagine how difficult that is but thousands of people are called to God's service to do that.
That's the arrogance that I referred to earlier. You believe that the BILLIONS of people in the world who do not believe what you believe will be tortured forever in hell, even the ones who were never exposed to the Bible in the first place. It's the epitome of arrogance.

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Originally Posted by King_Chief_Fan View Post
2nd bolded: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...47008514,d.aWM
Will give you a little more insight about what the Bible says about slavery if interested
I read the article you linked to. It's a Wikipedia article about the Bible. All the insight I need about the Bible's position on slavery can be found in the following passages. I prefer to go straight to the source, rather than relying upon a Wikipedia article.
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11)
The passages shown above are pretty self-explanatory. It's just fine to buy slaves and sell slaves. In fact, it's just fine to sell your daughters into slavery. They are your property. It says so in the Bible.

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Originally Posted by King_Chief_Fan View Post
3rd bolded: there is no evidence that I could find that raping is looked upon as acceptable even though it happened
LOL, seriously? Well, you sure didn't look very hard, then. What about this passage from the book of Numbers?
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
(Numbers 31:7-18)
Moses instructed his soldiers to kill all of the men, kill all of the boys, kill all of the women who were not virgins, and to kidnap all of the girls who were. He told them to keep those girls for themselves. They weren't keeping the girls so they could play tiddlywinks with them. He didn't actually say "rape them", but the meaning is crystal clear to everyone except the most hard-core Bible apologists. When Moses orders his men to rape girls, that's a pretty good indication that he finds it "acceptable".

King_Chief_Fan, please respond. I'd be interested in seeing if you still maintain the position that slavery and rape are not considered to be acceptable in the Bible.

The harshest critics of the Bible are sometimes people who have studied it the most. How do you know the Bible is the true and perfect word of God? Oh wait, I forgot: it says so IN THE BIBLE!
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:57 AM   #116
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I prefer to go straight to the source

How do you know the Bible is the true and perfect word of God? Oh wait, I forgot: it says so IN THE BIBLE!
quite the conundrum you've created for yourself.

also..you've presented this "case" before...no offense, but it's as silly now as it was then.
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Old 05-28-2013, 12:06 PM   #117
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There isn't a clear cut answer on that but I bet GOD knows and everyone has a chance. GOD always sends a visitation of life before letting you go. If you end up in hell you will have denied him.
It would be helpful if this visitation reveals which one of the more than 33,000 variations of Christianity is the correct one~
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Old 05-28-2013, 12:14 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
it is ok..I don't have the desire or time to "explain" something that one...I never said...and two... you falsely ascribed to me from a statement you took out of context.

this isn't a new tactic for you.
You never said this?

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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
works are as filthy rags....they will not bring an individual salvation

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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
you can read the Bible all you want..if you aren't seeking, nothing will be revealed...it's not rocket surgery...
OK then... I guess I falsely ascribed those direct quotes from you. Sorry about my tactics...
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Old 05-28-2013, 12:16 PM   #119
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...There's even a scene in the movie The Godfather when a priest says very few actually are touched by actual Catholicism or know it. Something like that. It may be a movie but it has truth in it...
I'll admit that I know little about the RCC, but I know The Godfather and I'm pretty sure that scene isn't in there, nor do I think that it's in The Godfather, Part II. It might be in Part III, but that's like saying something's in the Bible when it's in Maccabees or some shit.
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Old 05-28-2013, 12:20 PM   #120
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[quote=King_Chief_Fan;9711395]
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Originally Posted by scott free View Post
I bet many Christians believe like i do, that the old teachings of "good works will not get you into Heaven" are words written by a man with that belief, not by God himself.

Compassion for and caring for people is about as God-like as it gets, imo... they may not be looking for converts, but they love their fellow man and hurt inside when they see someone suffering, and thats what counts to the God i believe in.[/quote]

yes....plus accepting Christ as Savior
I've always had a hard time with that thought... what happens to the billions of people throughout history who never even heard of Jesus, are they going to hell just because they were living on a different side of the world, or during a different time?

The God i believe in isnt nearly that cold hearted.
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