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Old 05-25-2013, 08:50 PM  
Dave Lane Dave Lane is offline
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Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

It's all about works, just as it always has been and always should be. The pope says so!

Pope Francis rocked some religious and atheist minds today when he declared that everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists.

During his homily at Wednesday Mass in Rome, Francis emphasized the importance of "doing good" as a principle that unites all humanity, and a "culture of encounter" to support peace.

Using scripture from the Gospel of Mark, Francis explained how upset Jesus' disciples were that someone outside their group was doing good, according to a report from Vatican Radio.

“They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of ​​possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation”

Pope Francis went further in his sermon to say:

"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

Responding to the leader of the Roman Catholic church's homily, Father James Martin, S.J. wrote in an email to The Huffington Post:

"Pope Francis is saying, more clearly than ever before, that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for everyone. That's always been a Christian belief. You can find St. Paul saying in the First Letter to Timothy that Jesus gave himself as a "ransom for all." But rarely do you hear it said by Catholics so forcefully, and with such evident joy. And in this era of religious controversies, it's a timely reminder that God cannot be confined to our narrow categories."

Of course, not all Christians believe that those who don't believe will be redeemed, and the Pope's words may spark memories of the deep divisions from the Protestant reformation over the belief in redemption through grace versus redemption through works.

The pope's comment has also struck a chord on Reddit, where it is the second most-shared piece.

More from Reuters:

Atheists should be seen as good people if they do good, Pope Francis said on Wednesday in his latest urging that people of all religions - or no religion - work together.

The leader of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics made his comments in the homily of his morning Mass in his residence, a daily event where he speaks without prepared comments.

He told the story of a Catholic who asked a priest if even atheists had been redeemed by Jesus.

"Even them, everyone," the pope answered, according to Vatican Radio. "We all have the duty to do good," he said.

"Just do good and we'll find a meeting point," the pope said in a hypothetical conversation in which someone told a priest: "But I don't believe. I'm an atheist."

Francis's reaching out to atheists and people who belong to no religion is a marked contrast to the attitude of former Pope Benedict, who sometimes left non-Catholics feeling that he saw them as second-class believers.
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Old 05-28-2013, 12:22 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Sorry about my tactics...
apology accepted...context is your friend.
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Old 05-28-2013, 12:30 PM   #122
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There isn't a clear cut answer on that but I bet GOD knows and everyone has a chance. GOD always sends a visitation of life before letting you go. If you end up in hell you will have denied him.
I imagine it something like this...



God: You don't know me, and this is crazy. But I'm your God. So worship me. Or else I'LL TORTURE YOU FOREVER IN THE FIRES OF HELL BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T KNOW ME!
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Old 05-28-2013, 12:32 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
apology accepted...context is your friend.
I'd ask you to explain how I took those direct quotes out of context, but we both know how that would turn out.
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Old 05-28-2013, 12:33 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
quite the conundrum you've created for yourself.

also..you've presented this "case" before...no offense, but it's as silly now as it was then.
Regarding the "conundrum": it's not a conundrum for me at all. I go straight to the source when I want to know what that source says about a particular topic. That doesn't obligate me to believe that every word in that source is literally true and divinely inspired.

Regarding the case I've presented before: It's right there, word for word, in the Bible. Either the Bible is literally true, or it's a collection of allegorical tales that were not intended to be taken as literal truths, but were instead tailored in such a way as to communicate philosophical ideas to primitive people in terms that they could understand.

If you don't believe that the story of Moses telling his soldiers to kill the boys and rape the girls literally happened exactly as described in the Bible, then you can't turn around and say that the Bible is the divinely inspired and literally correct word of God, not subject to interpretation.

You can't have it both ways.
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Old 05-28-2013, 12:37 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by King_Chief_Fan View Post
If you don't mind saying....how did that happen...or what happened?
It didn't happen overnight. It was a gradual thing that occurred over a fairly long period of time (probably about 10 years).

My first doubts started creeping in during my late teens/early 20s. Eventually, it just stopped passing the "smell" test for me. There were a lot of things that factored in... learning more about the world and realizing how BIG and different it is... learning more about the bible and applying better understanding of human nature and humanity's inability to look into the abyss and see nothing, etc... learning more about science, history and history of religion... seeing the similarities and borrowed themes from other religions. Lot of things, but those are notable examples.

I don't really believe there is a supernatural or cosmic force manipulating everything, but if there is, I just don't believe it looks anything like the Jehovah/Jesus/Holy Spirit described in the bible.

Basically, I grew up, stopped accepting christianity just because my mom and dad told me to, critically examined the religion and found it wanting.
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Old 05-28-2013, 01:17 PM   #126
King_Chief_Fan King_Chief_Fan is offline
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That's the arrogance that I referred to earlier. You believe that the BILLIONS of people in the world who do not believe what you believe will be tortured forever in hell, even the ones who were never exposed to the Bible in the first place. It's the epitome of arrogance.



I read the article you linked to. It's a Wikipedia article about the Bible. All the insight I need about the Bible's position on slavery can be found in the following passages. I prefer to go straight to the source, rather than relying upon a Wikipedia article.
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11)
The passages shown above are pretty self-explanatory. It's just fine to buy slaves and sell slaves. In fact, it's just fine to sell your daughters into slavery. They are your property. It says so in the Bible.



LOL, seriously? Well, you sure didn't look very hard, then. What about this passage from the book of Numbers?
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.(Numbers 31:7-18)
Moses instructed his soldiers to kill all of the men, kill all of the boys, kill all of the women who were not virgins, and to kidnap all of the girls who were. He told them to keep those girls for themselves. They weren't keeping the girls so they could play tiddlywinks with them. He didn't actually say "rape them", but the meaning is crystal clear to everyone except the most hard-core Bible apologists. When Moses orders his men to rape girls, that's a pretty good indication that he finds it "acceptable".

King_Chief_Fan, please respond. I'd be interested in seeing if you still maintain the position that slavery and rape are not considered to be acceptable in the Bible.

The harshest critics of the Bible are sometimes people who have studied it the most. How do you know the Bible is the true and perfect word of God? Oh wait, I forgot: it says so IN THE BIBLE!
I don't find the acceptance of rape based on the writing. I think Moses even married a Medianite, I suspect what he meant was take them as wives or servants but I don't believe he meant rape them since that is an impure act and Moses would not have condoned that and certainly wouldn't have said or implied to rape them. Not sure it meant slaves either as they were servants since the they had to be cared for...food, clothing, shelter etc. (they had to work to pay thier keep maybe?).

You asked how I know if the Bible is the word of God. You are right because it says so, but God had to inspire and direct someone to write it...yes? Now, how do you know it isn't?..never mind trying to answer, as you and I will spend until we die in a circular conversation about it.

It seems we both choose to believe something different.
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Old 05-28-2013, 01:29 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by King_Chief_Fan View Post
I don't find the acceptance of rape based on the writing. I think Moses even married a Medianite, I suspect what he meant was take them as wives or servants but I don't believe he meant rape them since that is an impure act and Moses would not have condoned that and certainly wouldn't have said or implied to rape them. Not sure it meant slaves either as they were servants since the they had to be cared for...food, clothing, shelter etc. (they had to work to pay thier keep maybe?).

You asked how I know if the Bible is the word of God. You are right because it says so, but God had to inspire and direct someone to write it...yes? Now, how do you know it isn't?..never mind trying to answer, as you and I will spend until we die in a circular conversation about it.

It seems we both choose to believe something different.
No, he wouldn't. He's God. He could have it written in the sky in every language if he wanted to. Why would he need to work through a human, or a group of humans to get the word out? He used a burning bush to speak to Moses. Even that today would be enough. Anything more that "Well, you see it's written right here in this old book."
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Old 05-28-2013, 01:32 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by King_Chief_Fan View Post
I don't find the acceptance of rape based on the writing. I think Moses even married a Medianite, I suspect what he meant was take them as wives or servants but I don't believe he meant rape them since that is an impure act and Moses would not have condoned that and certainly wouldn't have said or implied to rape them. Not sure it meant slaves either as they were servants since the they had to be cared for...food, clothing, shelter etc. (they had to work to pay thier keep maybe?).

You asked how I know if the Bible is the word of God. You are right because it says so, but God had to inspire and direct someone to write it...yes? Now, how do you know it isn't?..never mind trying to answer, as you and I will spend until we die in a circular conversation about it.

It seems we both choose to believe something different.
"Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."
It is amazing the hoops people will jump through to defend this sick writing. Uh...it doesn't say rape them!!! Read the text "Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves" This does not even address the slaughter of women and children~
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Old 05-28-2013, 01:55 PM   #129
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1st bolded: That is the way it works.

This is literally so far beyond silly, beyond what should be considered remotely acceptable to any kind of fair or just God, that it should immediately cause you to think "that can't POSSIBLY be right, right?!"
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Old 05-28-2013, 01:58 PM   #130
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"Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."
It is amazing the hoops people will jump through to defend this sick writing. Uh...it doesn't say rape them!!! Read the text "Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves" This does not even address the slaughter of women and children~
In fairness to King_Chief_Fan and others, by pointing out the atrocities and contradictions in the Bible we are challenging their faith in a way that would cause any devout believer to be extremely uncomfortable. I don't do this lightly.

I remember a time when I thought all of the problems of the world would go away if only everyone would convert to my religion (Catholicism) and let the pope run things. It was a difficult journey to change my thinking about such a fundamental belief. For me it was the right thing to do, but I recognize that it's not necessarily the best thing for everyone. I'm willing to respect people who believe differently from what I do, although I will fight like hell if they attempt to implement government policy that supports their beliefs to the detriment of mine (example: teaching religious beliefs in science classes in public schools).
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Old 05-28-2013, 02:01 PM   #131
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Moses instructed his soldiers to kill all of the men, kill all of the boys, kill all of the women who were not virgins, and to kidnap all of the girls who were. He told them to keep those girls for themselves. They weren't keeping the girls so they could play tiddlywinks with them. He didn't actually say "rape them", but the meaning is crystal clear to everyone except the most hard-core Bible apologists. When Moses orders his men to rape girls, that's a pretty good indication that he finds it "acceptable".

mmmm....I dont' see it, and I'm no Bible apologist. Could he be saying that only virgins should be allowed to live because they're the only one appropriate to be raped? Sure, I guess, but you could equally argue (absent some other Biblical language that states to the contrary) that he is planning to assimilate young innocent girls/women into the society to help grow the society, but he doesn't want any that are tainted or used or whatever.



But let's face it, the God of the Old Testament is not a nice God. He just isn't. Lots of fire and brimstone and stone this guy and all that. It's sort of comical that he's supposed to be the same God as in the New Testament. As if a couple thousand years could change GOD that much.

But the whole thing is silly, and that is the least of examples.
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Old 05-28-2013, 02:03 PM   #132
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In fairness to King_Chief_Fan and others, by pointing out the atrocities and contradictions in the Bible we are challenging their faith in a way that would cause any devout believer to be extremely uncomfortable. I don't do this lightly.

I remember a time when I thought all of the problems of the world would go away if only everyone would convert to my religion (Catholicism) and let the pope run things. It was a difficult journey to change my thinking about such a fundamental belief. For me it was the right thing to do, but I recognize that it's not necessarily the best thing for everyone. I'm willing to respect people who believe differently from what I do, although I will fight like hell if they attempt to implement government policy that supports their beliefs to the detriment of mine (example: teaching religious beliefs in science classes in public schools).

I usually try not to argue religion. I can't change anyone's mind, and the whole thing is so patently silly to me I find it hard to argue without being offensive. Since I know some very nice people and some very very smart people who are very religious, I dont' see any reason to be the poop in the punch bowl most of the time.

But honestly, I just don't understand how anyone could believe any of it. It's no more believable than Zeus...
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Old 05-28-2013, 02:05 PM   #133
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I usually try not to argue religion. I can't change anyone's mind, and the whole thing is so patently silly to me I find it hard to argue without being offensive. Since I know some very nice people and some very very smart people who are very religious, I dont' see any reason to be the poop in the punch bowl most of the time.

But honestly, I just don't understand how anyone could believe any of it. It's no more believable than Zeus...
You're going to spend eternity in torment in Tartarus for that, mortal! Sent there straight on a lightning bolt.
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Old 05-28-2013, 02:06 PM   #134
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I will fight like hell if they attempt to implement government policy that supports their beliefs to the detriment of mine (example: teaching religious beliefs in science classes in public schools).
Yeah right! It just doesn't extend to our FP, killing in war or stealing other people's money to tech in those schools. That's why you touted Romney.

Uh huh! Some Buddhist you are. But then if you really were for peace, that would be implement govt policy based on your beliefs too.
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Old 05-28-2013, 02:16 PM   #135
King_Chief_Fan King_Chief_Fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
This is literally so far beyond silly, beyond what should be considered remotely acceptable to any kind of fair or just God, that it should immediately cause you to think "that can't POSSIBLY be right, right?!"
Well, you quoted only part of what I said but that made me more curious.
I got a little more education on the matter and
A co-worker lead me to this information. It is in a post following the one you referenced.

Then there is the witness of our consciences. Though defective since the fall, they still function and give us a sense of a moral order, a morality that we generally know to be correct, even though we fail to live up to it. Paul, in his treatment of God's righteous judgment, tells us that 'Gentiles, who do not have the law...show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness'.

Hence there is no-one that is totally ignorant of God. All of us have some knowledge of him and will be judged according to that. God 'will give to each person according to what he has done' not according to what he had no opportunity to do

I think that gives me some comfort for those who have had no chance or opportunity.
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Ephesians 2:8-10

English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
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