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Old 05-30-2013, 03:48 PM  
AustinChief AustinChief is offline
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Any HVAC experts want to weigh in on something...

My parents in DFW have an old system that it appears the evap/coils on the air handler are shot. It's an R22 system and they are trying to see if it is worth upgrading to r410 now. My question is... could they replace the evap/coils on the air handler and then also just replace the condenser on the heat pump and get away with a cheapish conversion to r410 or will they need to run new lines and replace the whole air handler and heat pump.

The other option is to just replace the evap/coils and stay R22 but that seems like a pretty big expense to not just go ahead and upgrade things.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:36 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Yep I know the Heat Pump IS the outside condenser unit. I was just referring to JUST the condenser part of the heat pump outside and not the whole shell and fan stuff. I am not doing a great job of communicating all of this!

Let me start over. I was thinking they could either A)replace a-coil as is and stay with R22 which is going to cost them a bunch to recharge. (something like $600 quoted to them just for recharge, I think) or B)replace a-coil with one for R410 and then of course they would have to replace the condenser in the heat pump outside to match. It sounds like you guys are saying that you don;t replace the condenser alone but the entire unit. Or of course C)replace the heat pump outside and the air handler inside which is going to be a massive job that I think will end up well over $6k or even $7k

I want to recommend option B if it is at all feasible, since in my mind I was thinking they could get away with a job costing closer to $3k and have basically the same result as option C but without the brand new warranties.

OK, let me know if my thinking is crazy talk.

OH and I'm almost 100% certain Goodman makes an R410 a-coil that would fit this old air handler.
Austin, after you burn/blow up your house give me a call and we'll go to 6th Street and I'll buy you a drink.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:58 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by ChiefaRoo View Post
Austin, after you burn/blow up your house give me a call and we'll go to 6th Street and I'll buy you a drink.
haha, not MY house, this is for my parents in DFW
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:59 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
haha, not MY house, this is for my parents in DFW
Offer still stands. Good Luck.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:12 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by nstygma View Post
i think the term you were looking for is compressor.
how do you know the leak is in the a-coil and not some other place?

so you've got a 4ton unit with 3/8 & 7/8 lines. wholesale price from Johnstone Supply for an uncased coil for that is basically $415 and a new 410a copeland scroll compressor is $820. so much hassle to replace them though, then what if it doesn't work properly?

better to have peace of mind for the next decade+ with a new system & warranty.
DAMMIT.. absolutely correct. I was typing condenser when I meant compressor all this time. No wonder I was making no sense.

I personally don't know jack, I am going off what someone else told them. But apparently the a-coil is rusted out and leaking.

They are getting quoted $2200 to replace the current air handler and recharge the system. Of course this would all still be r-22. That just seems to me to be fairly steep even considering the recharge to be $600 of that.. that means just replacing the air handler is costing $1600.

They are getting quoted between $6 and $7k to pull it all out and replace with R410a system.

The whole thing is a bit of a cluster**** to begin with. This system is just for the front of the house, basically 3 large rooms. The rest of the house is on a separate system.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:18 AM   #35
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220/221 volts What ever it takes. by UZI4you
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:19 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Chief Roundup View Post
Dude not true at all. The evaporator coil will ALWAYS be on the return side of the blower INSIDE the air handler cabinet when dealing with a heat pump.
A gas furnace will have the evap coil on the supply side of the heat exchanger but prior to the plenum box.
Huh, one of the apartment complexes I used to work at had heat pumps with gas furnace auxiliaries, and they were set up the same way with evap on the supply side.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:23 AM   #37
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I can't believe some of these prices I'm hearing for R22 recharges. Yeah, a tank is up to over $400 this year but it's not like you use an entire one each time you charge a system. I'm beginning to think some of these heating & air contractors are inflating the prices to try to get people to upgrade instead because they can make more money off of a new install.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:35 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Chief Roundup View Post
Just to verify for you. You CANNOT use a 410a coil with a R-22 condenser/compressor. The bulb that the TXV, expansion valve, uses to control how much refrigerant the valve lets by is charged with 410a refrigerant. That bulb will either allow too much refrigerant by or not enough. The bulb is strapped to the copper lines in the coil. It is suppose to sense the temperature of the refrigerant flowing through the coil and open the valve the proper amount. Those temperatues need to be the same for the valve to operate correctly. Those temperatures will not be the same if you put 2 different refrigerants together. This will prohibit the unit from working correctly and cost them even more money.
Yup I know you can't mix and match within the closed system. I was just typing the condenser when I meant compressor earlier and causing all sorts of confusion.

Their CORE dilemma (besides just trying to find the best most price effective solution) is that the air handler was likely installed during their last big kitchen remodel and now it doesn't appear there will be any way to replace the giant ass unit without some pretty big tearing up of things. In the end I think they are going to have to either A)just replace the a-coil and stick with R-22 for now and hope they are ready for another giant remodel when it comes time to replace everything or B)replace the a-coil and the heat pump outside to match to anew R410 system OR C) I just talked to my only buddy in Austin who is a big HVAC guy and he said given the screwed up situation what he would do is get a new slimmer air handler that would fit through the access panel and just cut the old on up in place to remove it and then upgrade the whole system to R410
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:50 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Bugeater View Post
I can't believe some of these prices I'm hearing for R22 recharges. Yeah, a tank is up to over $400 this year but it's not like you use an entire one each time you charge a system. I'm beginning to think some of these heating & air contractors are inflating the prices to try to get people to upgrade instead because they can make more money off of a new install.
No joke, at this rate it's worth it to take the EPA certification online($25) and just buy the stuff yourself.
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Old 05-31-2013, 12:14 PM   #40
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Huh, one of the apartment complexes I used to work at had heat pumps with gas furnace auxiliaries, and they were set up the same way with evap on the supply side.
Yes but it is a gas furnace. Not an electric Heat Pump air handler.
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Old 05-31-2013, 12:18 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Yup I know you can't mix and match within the closed system. I was just typing the condenser when I meant compressor earlier and causing all sorts of confusion.

Their CORE dilemma (besides just trying to find the best most price effective solution) is that the air handler was likely installed during their last big kitchen remodel and now it doesn't appear there will be any way to replace the giant ass unit without some pretty big tearing up of things. In the end I think they are going to have to either A)just replace the a-coil and stick with R-22 for now and hope they are ready for another giant remodel when it comes time to replace everything or B)replace the a-coil and the heat pump outside to match to anew R410 system OR C) I just talked to my only buddy in Austin who is a big HVAC guy and he said given the screwed up situation what he would do is get a new slimmer air handler that would fit through the access panel and just cut the old on up in place to remove it and then upgrade the whole system to R410
Yes they do make remodel specific cabinets. They work great, but sometimes the parts have to be different sizes or specs so if those parts have to be replaced it can be expensive. It is definitely an option to look into.
They might want to call the contractor that did the remodel and say a little something to them as well. They should have not put your folks in this situation.
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Old 05-31-2013, 12:20 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Bugeater View Post
I can't believe some of these prices I'm hearing for R22 recharges. Yeah, a tank is up to over $400 this year but it's not like you use an entire one each time you charge a system. I'm beginning to think some of these heating & air contractors are inflating the prices to try to get people to upgrade instead because they can make more money off of a new install.
Yeah companies are definitely trying to take advantage.
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Old 05-31-2013, 12:29 PM   #43
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No joke, at this rate it's worth it to take the EPA certification online($25) and just buy the stuff yourself.
Damn that is cheap my license was $150. For the universal with the engineer certificate attached.
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Old 05-31-2013, 12:56 PM   #44
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Damn that is cheap my license was $150. For the universal with the engineer certificate attached.
Well the one I looked up online was just 608 Type I .. basically just enough to be able to buy the stuff.
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:27 PM   #45
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Dude not true at all. The evaporator coil will ALWAYS be on the return side of the blower INSIDE the air handler cabinet when dealing with a heat pump.
A gas furnace will have the evap coil on the supply side of the heat exchanger but prior to the plenum box.
on a newer one yes, but if you happen to run across a 30 yr old elect furnace or a touch older you will find the evap coil on the supply air side. people like to make lincoln squeal around here, i just charged a unit which is about a 35 yr old rheem elect furnace, 20k heat,and the a-coil sits on top in the supply air. tried to talkem into a new system, not yet they say. and no luck finding the leak.

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