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Old 06-02-2013, 05:06 PM  
Taco John Taco John is offline
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Catholic Church at war with itself

This is an interesting development.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...nt-pope-franc/
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Old 06-02-2013, 11:24 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Comrade Crapski View Post
Loon's hatred for Christianity = Hitler's hatred for Jews (or as Loneiguana calls them, "communists").

Loon is a twisted little freak.
So Dave Lane is Hitler. You ****ing drama queen.
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Old 06-03-2013, 08:01 AM   #17
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He is against believers. Hes pretty anal about it to.
That being said. If Dave is wrong & their is a heaven? He will get a pass for the things hes done here on earth.
God works in mysterious ways. Dave Lane is good example of that quote
sadly, no.
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:31 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN View Post
It's good that mankind can tell God what he thinks everything should be like, it's not like GOD would know having made everything what the correct course of action would be.
The paradox of free will....

If God knows everything, then there can be no such thing as free will. If God is omniscient then humans do not have free will and the apparent arbitrary choice of God to condemn many individuals to eternal damnation is evil.

If God doesn't know and free will exists, then God is imperfect and cannot be omniscient. If he is not omniscient then he also cannot be omnipotent since knowledge of the future is a prerequisite for total action.

It's an amusing contradiction huh?
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:43 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish View Post
The paradox of free will....

If God knows everything, then there can be no such thing as free will. If God is omniscient then humans do not have free will and the apparent arbitrary choice of God to condemn many individuals to eternal damnation is evil.

If God doesn't know and free will exists, then God is imperfect and cannot be omniscient. If he is not omniscient then he also cannot be omnipotent since knowledge of the future is a prerequisite for total action.

It's an amusing contradiction huh?
You are free to do as you wish, just know there are consequences to your actions. Even in this life you can see this at work.
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:56 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla View Post
The Pope has a direct line to God; why would anyone in the church step in to "correct" him?
I've seen this explained here at least a dozen times and I don't spend much time in the religion threads. How could you have missed it?
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Old 06-03-2013, 10:07 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN View Post
You are free to do as you wish, just know there are consequences to your actions. Even in this life you can see this at work.
Free will is the ability to make choices completely of my own choosing. If you believe in devine consequences, then it's not free will, because you'd be removing choices. Free will cannot mean "Do anything except this and this and this." That's a type of determinism, because all my choices aren't available. You're including "Consequences", which further infers determinism. If this happens, then this will happen.

Hogwash.......
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Old 06-03-2013, 10:35 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I've seen this explained here at least a dozen times and I don't spend much time in the religion threads. How could you have missed it?
I clearly don't spend as much time as you in DC.
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Old 06-03-2013, 10:41 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla View Post
I clearly don't spend as much time as you in DC.
You mean as someone who posts? Not as someone who sits in the peanut gallery watching until it's time to throw some peanuts at someone, who is putting their views on the line.
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Old 06-03-2013, 11:40 AM   #24
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This argument is based on faulty logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish View Post
The paradox of free will....

If God knows everything, then there can be no such thing as free will. If God is omniscient then humans do not have free will and the apparent arbitrary choice of God to condemn many individuals to eternal damnation is evil.
This is only true if God is a being that is subject to matter and motion. But, if God is an eternal, non-material being, then God must not be subject to matter and motion and thus outside of matter an motion. IF God is outside of matter and motion, God is outside of time (for what is time other than the measure of motion?).

Because God is outside of time, he "sees" all human activity in time (as we measure it) as being present in ONE eternal instant, SIMULTANEOUSLY...God sees all of time at once! Picture two lines, one of which is constantly lit, the other is line is lit one point at at time. God would see all of time as the one constantly lit line while we humans would see time as the line lit point by point...only experiencing the present moment and then moving on to the next moment, etc.

If God sees all time simultaneously, then he sees what is future to us as present to him. We still choose freely and God does not necessarily have anything to do with what happens here on earth (the possibility of divine intervention is another topic altogether).

Quote:
If God doesn't know and free will exists, then God is imperfect and cannot be omniscient. If he is not omniscient then he also cannot be omnipotent since knowledge of the future is a prerequisite for total action.

It's an amusing contradiction huh?
This falls apart completely if my argument is correct. The only contradiction here is the one imposed from without by the ignorant.
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Old 06-03-2013, 12:07 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by otherstar View Post
This argument is based on faulty logic.



This is only true if God is a being that is subject to matter and motion. But, if God is an eternal, non-material being, then God must not be subject to matter and motion and thus outside of matter an motion. IF God is outside of matter and motion, God is outside of time (for what is time other than the measure of motion?).

Because God is outside of time, he "sees" all human activity in time (as we measure it) as being present in ONE eternal instant, SIMULTANEOUSLY...God sees all of time at once! Picture two lines, one of which is constantly lit, the other is line is lit one point at at time. God would see all of time as the one constantly lit line while we humans would see time as the line lit point by point...only experiencing the present moment and then moving on to the next moment, etc.

If God sees all time simultaneously, then he sees what is future to us as present to him. We still choose freely and God does not necessarily have anything to do with what happens here on earth (the possibility of divine intervention is another topic altogether).



This falls apart completely if my argument is correct. The only contradiction here is the one imposed from without by the ignorant.
Not sure how you figure that. God being subject to matter or motion is irrelevant. If God is omniscient, then he knows what is to come. Which would mean that everything is predetermined. It doesn't matter where or how God is observing. The fact that anyone has the knowledge(the fact that the knowledge exists at all), means that free will cannot exist and our choices are irrelevant. To the otherwise ignorant person making the choice, they would feel like actual choices. But if there is any predetermination possible, it's not actually a free choice. If God sees the future at all, regardless of what it looks like to us, then it means that events are predetermined. And it doesn't require any intervention. Whether he has any influence over it or not, it means that everything happens deterministically. Which disproves free will.

Take God completely out of the equation. If it's possible to know the future, then free will cannot exist.
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Old 06-03-2013, 12:47 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Not sure how you figure that. God being subject to matter or motion is irrelevant. If God is omniscient, then he knows what is to come. Which would mean that everything is predetermined. It doesn't matter where or how God is observing.
You're begging the question (a logical fallacy that renders your argument invalid). There is no causal link between God's omniscience and predetermination. You are still thinking of things from a human frame of reference, not a divine frame of reference (hence the NEED to establish that God is outside of matter an motion--to establish that there is such a thing as a Divine frame of reference).

Quote:
The fact that anyone has the knowledge(the fact that the knowledge exists at all), means that free will cannot exist and our choices are irrelevant.
Could you try harder to contradict yourself? So the fact that we know anything negates free will? On what planet? This is a HUGE logic fail. If we cannot know anything then how can we even have this conversation?

Quote:
To the otherwise ignorant person making the choice, they would feel like actual choices. But if there is any predetermination possible, it's not actually a free choice. If God sees the future at all, regardless of what it looks like to us, then it means that events are predetermined. And it doesn't require any intervention. Whether he has any influence over it or not, it means that everything happens deterministically. Which disproves free will.

Take God completely out of the equation. If it's possible to know the future, then free will cannot exist.
Wrong again. God does not "see the future." God sees all time as it happens simultaneously. There is no past or future for God. Only the presents exists for God! There is no such thing as "predetermination," strictly speaking. You've disproven nothing, you've only obfuscated your argument behind fallacious reasoning and clever sophistry.
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Old 06-03-2013, 01:26 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by otherstar View Post
You're begging the question (a logical fallacy that renders your argument invalid). There is no causal link between God's omniscience and predetermination. You are still thinking of things from a human frame of reference, not a divine frame of reference (hence the NEED to establish that God is outside of matter an motion--to establish that there is such a thing as a Divine frame of reference).
What exactly do you think omniscient means? Because predetermination is absolutely included in omniscience. That's the entire point of "Omni" being included in the word. That's not a logical fallacy at all. Frame of reference is still irrelevant with regards to omniscience. You cannot take away something like predetermination from omniscience. It's part of the meaning.

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Originally Posted by otherstar View Post
Could you try harder to contradict yourself? So the fact that we know anything negates free will? On what planet? This is a HUGE logic fail. If we cannot know anything then how can we even have this conversation?
You're confusing "Anything" with "Everything". There's a big difference.

If it were possible to know everything, which includes future events, then free will could not exist. You cannot have both.

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Originally Posted by otherstar View Post
Wrong again. God does not "see the future." God sees all time as it happens simultaneously. There is no past or future for God. Only the presents exists for God! There is no such thing as "predetermination," strictly speaking. You've disproven nothing, you've only obfuscated your argument behind fallacious reasoning and clever sophistry.
Calling it by a different name, or putting quotes around it doesn't change the meaning. If God sees all time, then he knows what you're going to have for breakfast next Monday. So your choice of breakfast next Monday isn't your choice at all, because the knowledge of the outcome is already available.

I don't think there's such a thing as predetermination either. But if that's true, it would mean that God is not omniscient, and therefore not omnipotent. Do you agree that God is not omniscient?
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:17 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
What exactly do you think omniscient means? Because predetermination is absolutely included in omniscience. That's the entire point of "Omni" being included in the word. That's not a logical fallacy at all. Frame of reference is still irrelevant with regards to omniscience. You cannot take away something like predetermination from omniscience. It's part of the meaning.

You're confusing "Anything" with "Everything". There's a big difference.

If it were possible to know everything, which includes future events, then free will could not exist. You cannot have both.

Calling it by a different name, or putting quotes around it doesn't change the meaning. If God sees all time, then he knows what you're going to have for breakfast next Monday. So your choice of breakfast next Monday isn't your choice at all, because the knowledge of the outcome is already available.

I don't think there's such a thing as predetermination either. But if that's true, it would mean that God is not omniscient, and therefore not omnipotent. Do you agree that God is not omniscient?
You have one very very very basic flaw in your argument. You assume (wrongly) that predetermination and free will are incompatible. They aren't. That is just silly. Just because I know what choice you will make doesn't mean you didn't have the freedom to make that choice. Yes, I know a hard determinist like Martin Luther would disagree, but Martin Luther was a **** bag so I don't care.
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:26 PM   #29
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ok, now to get back to the topic at hand. Once again we have an article that is meant to sensationalize something that isn't newsworthy at all.

The Vatican is simply trying to clarify things that people obviously were too ****ing stupid to understand in the first place.

Let's recap... AT NO POINT did Pope Francis claim salvation for atheists who do good works. That is entirely based on people who don't know the difference between REDEMPTION and SALVATION. The Church isn't fighting nor is it backtracking... it's simple trying to explain things correctly to the piss ignorant media.
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:27 PM   #30
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So Dave Lane is Hitler. You ****ing drama queen.
Just substitute "Christian" for "Jew" and it's an apt comparison short of killing them all.
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