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Old 06-02-2013, 05:06 PM  
Taco John Taco John is offline
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Catholic Church at war with itself

This is an interesting development.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...nt-pope-franc/
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:30 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
ok, now to get back to the topic at hand. Once again we have an article that is meant to sensationalize something that isn't newsworthy at all.

The Vatican is simply trying to clarify things that people obviously were too ****ing stupid to understand in the first place.

Let's recap... AT NO POINT did Pope Francis claim salvation for atheists who do good works. That is entirely based on people who don't know the difference between REDEMPTION and SALVATION. The Church isn't fighting nor is it backtracking... it's simple trying to explain things correctly to the piss ignorant media.
I agree with this.
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:34 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
ok, now to get back to the topic at hand. Once again we have an article that is meant to sensationalize something that isn't newsworthy at all.

The Vatican is simply trying to clarify things that people obviously were too ****ing stupid to understand in the first place.

Let's recap... AT NO POINT did Pope Francis claim salvation for atheists who do good works. That is entirely based on people who don't know the difference between REDEMPTION and SALVATION. The Church isn't fighting nor is it backtracking... it's simple trying to explain things correctly to the piss ignorant media.
I didn't see you correcting Dave Lane on this point when he posted later in the other thread that he was going to be saved as in not go to hell.
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:37 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Just substitute "Christian" for "Jew" and it's an apt comparison short of killing them all.
Well, I guess that's the rub when you want to compare anyone to Hitler these days. Saying "You're just like Hitler, minus the genocidal tendencies" just really doesn't pack the desired punch.
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:39 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I didn't see you correcting Dave Lane on this point when he posted later in the other thread that he was going to be saved as in not go to hell.
I mostly ignore Dave Lane in religion threads, he isn't attempting to make serious points so I don't bother reading. I did however point it out fairly early in that thread, long before anyone else I believe.
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:39 PM   #35
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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This idea of redemption and salvation being that different is confusing because the regular uses of both words are defined the same. Dictionary.com uses an entry for Christianity saying "salvation" from sin through the sacrifice of Jesus. Okay it says from sin. But then under salvation is says:
Theology-deliverance from the power and penalty of sin; redemption.

It's not that so many are stupid, the RCC doesn't express the point well enough to be understood easily.
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:40 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
You have one very very very basic flaw in your argument. You assume (wrongly) that predetermination and free will are incompatible. They aren't. That is just silly. Just because I know what choice you will make doesn't mean you didn't have the freedom to make that choice. Yes, I know a hard determinist like Martin Luther would disagree, but Martin Luther was a **** bag so I don't care.
How do you suggest that they are compatible?

Compatibilism is rather silly in my opinion, Martin Luther jokes aside. And he's hardly alone in that thought. There is significantly more support for the idea of incompatibility than the opposite. I'm not sure how you can say your choice was yours if you believe that it was predetermined.
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:42 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Bowser View Post
Well, I guess that's the rub when you want to compare anyone to Hitler these days. Saying "You're just like Hitler, minus the genocidal tendencies" just really doesn't pack the desired punch.
That's because you lefties, focus only on Hitler killing a group of people, without realizing that was all built up and allowed to happen through rhetoric first. You guys ignore many other things about Hitler and his fascism, so you can get off the hook for some of the things your side supports. Let's face it Hitler was not a one dimensional monster.
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:44 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
This idea of redemption and salvation being that different is confusing because the regular uses of both words are defined the same. Dictionary.com uses an entry for Christianity saying "salvation" from sin through the sacrifice of Jesus. Okay it says from sin. But then under salvation is says:
Theology-deliverance from the power and penalty of sin; redemption.

It's not that so many are stupid, the RCC doesn't express the point well enough to be understood easily.
Nice try. No, if you are going to wade into a theological argument and you don't know basic concepts... you will get abused. As you did in the last thread. Don't blame your ignorance on the Church.

The Dictionary isn't distinguishing between "salvation" and "eternal or everlasting salvation." In the context of these discussions it can be assumed that everyone here is talking about "eternal salvation."
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:50 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Nice try.
Thank you. Yes it was a nice one.

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No, if you are going to wade into a theological argument and you don't know basic concepts... you will get abused. As you did in the last thread. Don't blame your ignorance on the Church.
I disagree. If the RCC is going to make a statement to the general public (which includes non RCC members) that results in a press report, they have some responsibility to make it more clearly. A simple additional statement that it does not apply to individual salvation from hell in the end is all that was needed. They were trying to use Public Relations to improve their image, and it backfired—badly. Including among many of it's faithful.

You didn't even make the point in that last thread first. It took someone else.

Quote:
The Dictionary isn't distinguishing between "salvation" and "eternal or everlasting salvation." In the context of these discussions it can be assumed that everyone here is talking about "eternal salvation."
Which is what was assumed using both words. Again, I disagree, the two words are practically the same. It's just that the RCC applies one collectively and the other individually. That's where the difference resides in their theology.
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:51 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
How do you suggest that they are compatible?

Compatibilism is rather silly in my opinion, Martin Luther jokes aside. And he's hardly alone in that thought. There is significantly more support for the idea of incompatibility than the opposite. I'm not sure how you can say your choice was yours if you believe that it was predetermined.
Because external knowledge without a direct action or confinement upon my choice has nothing to do with what I choose.

I heartily disagree with your claim that there is "more support" for incompatibility. I'll put Aquinas up against Luther any day of the week. Not to mention Hobbes and Hume. Don't pretend for a second that compatibilism is some sort of "fringe" view.
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:56 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
You didn't even make the point in that last thread first. It took someone else.
And again you blame YOUR ignorance on others.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...2&postcount=64

Quote:
Pope Francis is not talking about SALVATION at all here he is talking about REDEMPTION... totally different concepts. I can go into more detail on the nuances if you want to discuss it. I won't bother doing so for Buc, she wouldn't be able to keep up so I'm not going to even bother.
BAM! BITCH!

A full 16 hours and 2 minutes BEFORE otherstar (who knows his shit) stated the exact same thing.
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Old 06-03-2013, 03:16 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
This is interesting for me because my wife and children are Catholic, but I am not due to fundamental differences in belief that I have from the Catholic church. Pope Francis, however, has really appealed to me with his views on theology and I've quickly become a fan of his.
The Pope's views on theology are the Catholic views on theology.

The pope is actually re-hashing a lot of Benedict - Fr. Z. has some posts on his blog on how to read Benedict through Francis .

Francis is not so much of a theologian as he is a "Do-er" he prefers action and as such he relies on his predecessor (as all Popes do) to lead the way on theology.
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Old 06-03-2013, 03:38 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Because external knowledge without a direct action or confinement upon my choice has nothing to do with what I choose.

I heartily disagree with your claim that there is "more support" for incompatibility. I'll put Aquinas up against Luther any day of the week. Not to mention Hobbes and Hume. Don't pretend for a second that compatibilism is some sort of "fringe" view.
Of course it does, if the outcome has already been determined. If the outcome is already known, then there has already been confinement upon your choice, you just don't realize it.

Compatibilism isn't really a fringe view, but it's far from popular. It presents several issues with the classic view of God, and morality, and the idea of evil. It only makes sense if you warp the meaning of "Free will".
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Old 06-03-2013, 03:51 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
And again you blame YOUR ignorance on others.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...2&postcount=64
Oh really? My first post #19 I used the word "salvation" not "redemption."

You used to word "salvation" in that post regarding mine as well.

Quote:
I'm not saying that the Catholic Church is saying all atheists go to heaven as long as they do good works. That's an over simplistic idiotic thing for anyone to think. That is not what Francis said here regardless of the sloppy reporting of it. BUT it is equally wrong and simplistic to say something as piss ignorant as Buc's contention that the Church teaching has always been that ONLY Catholics can achieve salvation.
There you go!
After that you used the word redemption but I still said salvation. Obviously, that's what I was talking about.

Still,I didn't see you calling out Brainiac for being ignorant and it's obvious he thought it meant salvation too. And still did after all the dust settled.

Quote:
I won't bother doing so for Buc, she wouldn't be able to keep up so I'm not going to even bother.
Really, then why would I validate the poster who did bother to explain Francis? Nope, you're wrong. I followed along just fine...but I was obviously talking about there being no salvation outside the Catholic Church which still holds and has never changed.

The fact remains, your first post (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...53&postcount=9 ) does not bother to clarify the point right away. And at least, I was referring to salvation. I went and looked up afterwards what Francis actually did say and it did fall in line, but was reported sloppily.

Quote:
BAM! BITCH!


A full 16 hours and 2 minutes BEFORE otherstar (who knows his shit) stated the exact same thing.
Really, I never read it because Satan was working on you based on your childish emotional outburst in antagonism and name calling. I avoid that character when he's working overtime.

BAM! CHOAD!


I think Slag was the one who actually got both sides of this right:

Quote:
Slag 5-28 2:01 AM
First - To Buc and AC - You're both right but you're fighting too hard at each other to recognize this.
and

Quote:
The fact is that this nuance regarding athiests is not so radical as the news outlets would like to make it sound.
I agree the news outlets attempted to make is sound this way....even if Francis never really said it that way based on checking it.
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Old 06-03-2013, 03:58 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Of course it does, if the outcome has already been determined. If the outcome is already known, then there has already been confinement upon your choice, you just don't realize it.

Compatibilism isn't really a fringe view, but it's far from popular. It presents several issues with the classic view of God, and morality, and the idea of evil. It only makes sense if you warp the meaning of "Free will".
It is free will! the god that will see to it that you are burned in flames forever if you do not submit to him orders you to have it~
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