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Old 06-05-2013, 06:13 PM  
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NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

From the Guardian

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The order, a copy of which has been obtained by the Guardian, requires Verizon on an "ongoing, daily basis" to give the NSA information on all telephone calls in its systems, both within the US and between the US and other countries.
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The secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (Fisa) granted the order to the FBI on April 25, giving the government unlimited authority to obtain the data for a specified three-month period ending on July 19.

Under the terms of the blanket order, the numbers of both parties on a call are handed over, as is location data, call duration, unique identifiers, and the time and duration of all calls. The contents of the conversation itself are not covered.
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Old 06-09-2013, 07:21 AM   #136
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http://yahoo.usatoday.com/news/washi...ax_x.htm?csp=1

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NSA secret database report triggers fierce debate in Washington

WASHINGTON — A massive government database containing the phone records of tens of millions of Americans — reported by USA TODAY on Thursday — marks the modern intersection of two powerful emerging forces: terrorism and technology.

And the firestorm sparked by disclosure of the National Security Agency project mirrors a debate that dates to the nation's founding, and before, over balancing the interests of the government with the rights of individuals.

"It's an issue of our times — a huge issue," said Clayton Northouse, editor of Protecting What Matters: Technology, Security, and Liberty since 9/11, published last month.

"In the lead-up to 9/11, a lot of the terrorists left a lot of information trails that could have potentially been tracked down. ... But then we bump up against the need to protect civil liberties in this new environment. How can we maintain people's privacy while maintaining the usefulness of the information?"
Oh wait this story is from 2006. All you conservatives complaining now shouldn't have supported the Patriot Act in the first place. Some of us tried to tell you.
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Old 06-09-2013, 08:26 AM   #137
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Yikes. Worth the read.

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I live in a country generally assumed to be a dictatorship. One of the Arab spring countries. I have lived through curfews and have seen the outcomes of the sort of surveillance now being revealed in the US. People here talking about curfews aren't realizing what that actually FEELS like. It isn't about having to go inside, and the practicality of that. It's about creating the feeling that everyone, everything is watching. A few points:

1) the purpose of this surveillance from the governments point of view is to control enemies of the state. Not terrorists. People who are coalescing around ideas that would destabilize the status quo. These could be religious ideas. These could be groups like anon who are too good with tech for the governments liking. It makes it very easy to know who these people are. It also makes it very simple to control these people.

Lets say you are a college student and you get in with some people who want to stop farming practices that hurt animals. So you make a plan and go to protest these practices. You get there, and wow, the protest is huge. You never expected this, you were just goofing off. Well now everyone who was there is suspect. Even though you technically had the right to protest, you're now considered a dangerous person.

With this tech in place, the government doesn't have to put you in jail. They can do something more sinister. They can just email you a sexy picture you took with a girlfriend. Or they can email you a note saying that they can prove your dad is cheating on his taxes. Or they can threaten to get your dad fired. All you have to do, the email says, is help them catch your friends in the group. You have to report back every week, or you dad might lose his job. So you do. You turn in your friends and even though they try to keep meetings off grid, you're reporting on them to protect your dad.

2) Let's say number one goes on. The country is a weird place now. Really weird. Pretty soon, a movement springs up like occupy, except its bigger this time. People are really serious, and they are saying they want a government without this power. I guess people are realizing that it is a serious deal. You see on the news that tear gas was fired. Your friend calls you, frantic. They're shooting people. Oh my god. you never signed up for this. You say, **** it. My dad might lose his job but I won't be responsible for anyone dying. That's going too far. You refuse to report anymore. You just stop going to meetings. You stay at home, and try not to watch the news. Three days later, police come to your door and arrest you. They confiscate your computer and phones, and they beat you up a bit. No one can help you so they all just sit quietly. They know if they say anything they're next. This happened in the country I live in. It is not a joke.

3) Its hard to say how long you were in there. What you saw was horrible. Most of the time, you only heard screams. People begging to be killed. Noises you've never heard before. You, you were lucky. You got kicked every day when they threw your moldy food at you, but no one shocked you. No one used sexual violence on you, at least that you remember. There were some times they gave you pills, and you can't say for sure what happened then. To be honest, sometimes the pills were the best part of your day, because at least then you didn't feel anything. You have scars on you from the way you were treated. You learn in prison that torture is now common. But everyone who uploads videos or pictures of this torture is labeled a leaker. Its considered a threat to national security. Pretty soon, a cut you got on your leg is looking really bad. You think it's infected. There were no doctors in prison, and it was so overcrowded, who knows what got in the cut. You go to the doctor, but he refuses to see you. He knows if he does the government can see the records that he treated you. Even you calling his office prompts a visit from the local police.

You decide to go home and see your parents. Maybe they can help. This leg is getting really bad. You get to their house. They aren't home. You can't reach them no matter how hard you try. A neighbor pulls you aside, and he quickly tells you they were arrested three weeks ago and haven't been seen since. You vaguely remember mentioning to them on the phone you were going to that protest. Even your little brother isn't there.

4) Is this even really happening? You look at the news. Sports scores. Celebrity news. It's like nothing is wrong. What the hell is going on? A stranger smirks at you reading the paper. You lose it. You shout at him "**** you dude what are you laughing at can't you see I've got a ****ing wound on my leg?"
"Sorry," he says. "I just didn't know anyone read the news anymore." There haven't been any real journalists for months. They're all in jail.

Everyone walking around is scared. They can't talk to anyone else because they don't know who is reporting for the government. Hell, at one time YOU were reporting for the government. Maybe they just want their kid to get through school. Maybe they want to keep their job. Maybe they're sick and want to be able to visit the doctor. It's always a simple reason. Good people always do bad things for simple reasons.

You want to protest. You want your family back. You need help for your leg. This is way beyond anything you ever wanted. It started because you just wanted to see fair treatment in farms. Now you're basically considered a terrorist, and everyone around you might be reporting on you. You definitely can't use a phone or email. You can't get a job. You can't even trust people face to face anymore. On every corner, there are people with guns. They are as scared as you are. They just don't want to lose their jobs. They don't want to be labeled as traitors.

This all happened in the country where I live.

You want to know why revolutions happen? Because little by little by little things get worse and worse. But this thing that is happening now is big. This is the key ingredient. This allows them to know everything they need to know to accomplish the above. The fact that they are doing it is proof that they are the sort of people who might use it in the way I described. In the country I live in, they also claimed it was for the safety of the people. Same in Soviet Russia. Same in East Germany. In fact, that is always the excuse that is used to surveil everyone. But it has never ONCE proven to be the reality.

Maybe Obama won't do it. Maybe the next guy won't, or the one after him. Maybe this story isn't about you. Maybe it happens 10 or 20 years from now, when a big war is happening, or after another big attack. Maybe it's about your daughter or your son. We just don't know yet. But what we do know is that right now, in this moment we have a choice. Are we okay with this, or not? Do we want this power to exist, or not?

You know for me, the reason I'm upset is that I grew up in school saying the pledge of allegiance. I was taught that the United States meant "liberty and justice for all." You get older, you learn that in this country we define that phrase based on the constitution. That's what tells us what liberty is and what justice is. Well, the government just violated that ideal. So if they aren't standing for liberty and justice anymore, what are they standing for? Safety?

Ask yourself a question. In the story I told above, does anyone sound safe?

I didn't make anything up. These things happened to people I know. We used to think it couldn't happen in America. But guess what? It's starting to happen.

I actually get really upset when people say "I don't have anything to hide. Let them read everything." People saying that have no idea what they are bringing down on their own heads. They are naive, and we need to listen to people in other countries who are clearly telling us that this is a horrible horrible sign and it is time to stand up and say no.
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Old 06-09-2013, 08:27 AM   #138
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Old 06-09-2013, 09:07 AM   #139
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I don't think impeaching Obama would make any difference. This is a fundamental issue with politics that isn't separated by party. It was bound to happen as soon as the technology became available.

And I would bet lots and lots of money, that if we're hearing about something like the giant Utah datacenter publicly, then you can guarantee that the government already has a few more built that we'll never know about.
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Old 06-09-2013, 09:11 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish View Post
I don't think impeaching Obama would make any difference. This is a fundamental issue with politics that isn't separated by party. It was bound to happen as soon as the technology became available.

And I would bet lots and lots of money, that if we're hearing about something like the giant Utah datacenter publicly, then you can guarantee that the government already has a few more built that we'll never know about.
The talk of impeachment is something only retards would say. How can you impeach a president for a law Congress approved and still does overwhelmingly?
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Old 06-09-2013, 09:33 AM   #141
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I'm well aware of Moore's Law. However, how practical is it to assume that such a facility can physically house a Yottabyte of information.

A thought experiment:

Use the article's example, that a flash drive can hold a terabyte of information. Well, an exabyte is a million terabytes, or a million times the size of said flash drive. A yottabyte is a million exabytes, which would mean that you would need a space large enough to hold a quadrillion of said flash drives.

After a few more iterations of Moore's Law I could see this as a potential possibility. But right now, this is the space you would need:

Average flash drive size: 2x1x.4 in=.8 cubic inches.

800000000000000 cubic inches/1728 (provides cubic feet)=462962962962 Cubic Feet of space.

What would the dimensions of such a space be:

7735 feet long, 7735 feet high, 7735 feet wide.

Just for data storage. That ignores the need to network the information, provide power to the system architecture, cool it, as well as making it mildly accessible if physical repairs are required.

I don't doubt that such a facility exists, but I wonder about the amount of information the article claims it will be able to house and process.
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Old 06-09-2013, 09:54 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins View Post
I'm well aware of Moore's Law. However, how practical is it to assume that such a facility can physically house a Yottabyte of information.

After a few more iterations of Moore's Law I could see this as a potential possibility. But right now, this is the space you would need:

Average flash drive size: 2x1x.4 in=.8 cubic inches.

800000000000000 cubic inches/1728 (provides cubic feet)=462962962962 Cubic Feet of space.

What would the dimensions of such a space be:

7735 feet long, 7735 feet high, 7735 feet wide.

Just for data storage. That ignores the need to network the information, provide power to the system architecture, cool it, as well as making it mildly accessible if physical repairs are required.

I don't doubt that such a facility exists, but I wonder about the amount of information the article claims it will be able to house and process.
those sizes and dimensions are what is being sold to the general public, and the amount of physical space needed to hold more date becomes smaller by the day

computers used take up whole rooms, now tiny laptops hold more information than those giant ones of the past

nevermind the government gets this technology far quicker than it's released to the public.

i like the thought that it's possible this much data could be too big for the government to store (particularly going forward)....but where there's a will there's a way, especially when unlimited financing is involved

but i'm hoping you're right
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Old 06-09-2013, 09:59 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish View Post
I don't think impeaching Obama would make any difference. This is a fundamental issue with politics that isn't separated by party. It was bound to happen as soon as the technology became available.

And I would bet lots and lots of money, that if we're hearing about something like the giant Utah datacenter publicly, then you can guarantee that the government already has a few more built that we'll never know about.
You start with Obama and anyone that backs anything unconstitutional, problem is who would do the dirty work? The people responsible for impeachment would need scrutiny as well...Therefore it will never happen.
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Old 06-09-2013, 10:03 AM   #144
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The administration is getting the talking points out, sending the labrats out to deflect the issue away from those responsible.

Should be interesting to see if the tactic works this time. Seems like the negative impact on people is growing far faster than they can massage the message and spin it away from the top levels.

Moving the argument from responsible people to some obscure theoretical discussion on government power....come on. How big a room does it take to store the data...really?

Got to hand it to the Obama camp. They feed the lines and the labrats run with it. But it looks like this time its a wasted effort. People have lost the glow for Obama now that they see how perverted his policies are and his abuse of power being out of control in line with his ego.
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Old 06-09-2013, 10:10 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN View Post
You start with Obama and anyone that backs anything unconstitutional, problem is who would do the dirty work? The people responsible for impeachment would need scrutiny as well...Therefore it will never happen.
Well that would include Congress and then you would probably have to get rid of all the Supreme Court justices. I see there has been little to no discussion on this past week's SC ruling by the conservative justices that if you get arrested they can get your DNA now and then put it a big database.

As I asked before how you can you impeach a POTUS that is doing what Congress authorized him to do and still supports it?

The bad thing is Bush put all future POTUS in a bind because if any of them decide to get rid of the Patriot Act and all the snooping and we get hit by another big terrorist act there will be hell to pay. That is why it will never go away and Congress won't let it. They love their jobs to much.
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Old 06-09-2013, 10:16 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
The administration is getting the talking points out, sending the labrats out to deflect the issue away from those responsible.

Should be interesting to see if the tactic works this time. Seems like the negative impact on people is growing far faster than they can massage the message and spin it away from the top levels.

Moving the argument from responsible people to some obscure theoretical discussion on government power....come on. How big a room does it take to store the data...really?

Got to hand it to the Obama camp. They feed the lines and the labrats run with it. But it looks like this time its a wasted effort. People have lost the glow for Obama now that they see how perverted his policies are and his abuse of power being out of control in line with his ego.
Who is responsible? Congress? Obama? NSA? Please tell us who you think should be held accountable.
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Old 06-09-2013, 10:19 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by dirk digler View Post
Well that would include Congress and then you would probably have to get rid of all the Supreme Court justices. I see there has been little to no discussion on this past week's SC ruling by the conservative justices that if you get arrested they can get your DNA now and then put it a big database.

As I asked before how you can you impeach a POTUS that is doing what Congress authorized him to do and still supports it?

The bad thing is Bush put all future POTUS in a bind because if any of them decide to get rid of the Patriot Act and all the snooping and we get hit by another big terrorist act there will be hell to pay. That is why it will never go away and Congress won't let it. They love their jobs to much.


You might want to rethink that last paragraph.
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Old 06-09-2013, 10:25 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Backwards Masking View Post
those sizes and dimensions are what is being sold to the general public, and the amount of physical space needed to hold more date becomes smaller by the day

computers used take up whole rooms, now tiny laptops hold more information than those giant ones of the past

nevermind the government gets this technology far quicker than it's released to the public.

i like the thought that it's possible this much data could be too big for the government to store (particularly going forward)....but where there's a will there's a way, especially when unlimited financing is involved

but i'm hoping you're right
I'm well aware of the past history of computing; that's why I mentioned Moore's Law. In a decade, housing so much data becomes marginally more practical, but merely housing data also ignores the computational power needed to decipher and analyze it. And of course the government has access to tech before the civilian sector does; the largest flash drive commercially available is 256 GB. Following Moore's Law, it should be 3-4 years before a 1TB flash drive is available, as 1TB is the example used in the aforementioned article.

I think that the quoted article may be overestimating the size and scope of this facility somewhat. Regardless, its intentions are monstrous and it should not exist.
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Old 06-09-2013, 10:31 AM   #149
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You might want to rethink that last paragraph.
Why?

You surely understand what I am saying. We allowed this massive intrusion into our privacy after 9/11 to "protect" us and I am sure some of it does but at what cost? You know exactly what would happen if a Congress\POTUS let the Patriot Act expire and then we get by a terrorist act that kills a bunch of people. All you would hear is people yelling and screaming you could have saved them if you had the Patriot Act. Then they will get voted out of office and then next stooges will start it back up again.
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Old 06-09-2013, 10:33 AM   #150
RNR RNR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post


You might want to rethink that last paragraph.
It amazes me to see things spun back to the same line...it's W's fault
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