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Old 06-05-2013, 06:13 PM  
DaveNull DaveNull is offline
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NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

From the Guardian

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The order, a copy of which has been obtained by the Guardian, requires Verizon on an "ongoing, daily basis" to give the NSA information on all telephone calls in its systems, both within the US and between the US and other countries.
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The secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (Fisa) granted the order to the FBI on April 25, giving the government unlimited authority to obtain the data for a specified three-month period ending on July 19.

Under the terms of the blanket order, the numbers of both parties on a call are handed over, as is location data, call duration, unique identifiers, and the time and duration of all calls. The contents of the conversation itself are not covered.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:15 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by KC Dan View Post
This really should give every American pause. Left, right, independent, Libertarian, all of us. I really don't think that the majority of Americans ever thought that their government would invade their privacy to the extent of receiving everyone's phone records regardless of whether they were identified as a risk to National security. The Patriot Act and subsequent extensions were sold as needed to monitor the communications of suspected terrorism suspects not to cast the widest net possible of all Americans in order to hopefully spot a few terror suspects.
The problem is your average American doesn't give a shit. They've been brainwashed by the drug war's "If you aren't doing anything wrong then you don't have to worry about infringements upon your rights."
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:16 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Xanathol View Post
In its origin under Bush, it was more focused - for instance, there had to be a foreign entity involved, otherwise a court order was still necessary. What they are doing now its just flat out wrong.
Incorrect. They were intercepting everything going through ATT.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:51 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by blaise View Post
It seems a little odd that I often hear Obama supporters saying, "Well Bush did it too!" considering that they also claim Bush is the worst president ever.

And that's not directed at you Amnorix. It just seems like a somewhat common refrain lately.

I'm not saying this program is a good thing, or that Obama is justified because Bush did it too. I'm saying that given the support on both sides of the aisle, this issue is completely divorced from normal party politics.

What we don't know, of course, is how narrow/broad in scope these phone log tracking efforts are, or how often these phone log records have successfully prevented terrorist acts. I'd want a better sense of that before I go completely nuts over it.

I'd certainly agree that just blanket tracking of all phone logs is not what I want Big Brother doing...
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:52 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
I work on the axiom that if you give government power, it will be abused.

That axiom hasn't been proved wrong yet.

Well, actually, it's more or less proven wrong every day. We're not in a totalitarian state. No one is suggesting these phone logs have been USED in an inappropriate way. Nobody seems to think that they're being abused.

At least not YET, right? The issue is whether such extensive information could lead to abuse and therefore the government shouldn't get it. Not that it HAS led to abuse...

EDIT: Further note that it's proven wrong every day until and unless, suddenly, the government IS abusing its power and then it may be VERY hard to put the genie back into the bottle. Nobody is saying "let's act like ignorant idiots until the day martial law is declared."

I'm just saying that for all the shouts of "FIRE!" I hear around here, this isn't exactly Iran... Heck, the mere fact that people here CAN and DO shout "FIRE!" every day, and aren't hauled away to the gulag proves that this isn't Soviet Russia, Iran, Nazi Germany, etc.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:53 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by KC Dan View Post
Agreed. This is complete government overreach and an assault on the 4th amendment for all Americans. Dems, repubs, all of them. The Patriot Act and the extensions were sold as selected intrusions on potential terrorist threats. Now, we are all potential terrorist threats, I guess. No bueno.
my favorite argument for the Patriot Act back then was "Well...if you're not a terrorist, then you should have nothing to hide/shouldn't be an issue"

yet, those same idiots would be the first to complain if they were forced to show papers, or submit to random searches of their homes.

but since the Patriot Act is in the name of 'safety'......good god.
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:02 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Well, actually, it's more or less proven wrong every day. We're not in a totalitarian state. No one is suggesting these phone logs have been USED in an inappropriate way. Nobody seems to think that they're being abused.

At least not YET, right? The issue is whether such extensive information could lead to abuse and therefore the government shouldn't get it. Not that it HAS led to abuse...

EDIT: Further note that it's proven wrong every day until and unless, suddenly, the government IS abusing its power and then it may be VERY hard to put the genie back into the bottle. Nobody is saying "let's act like ignorant idiots until the day martial law is declared."

I'm just saying that for all the shouts of "FIRE!" I hear around here, this isn't exactly Iran... Heck, the mere fact that people here CAN and DO shout "FIRE!" every day, and aren't hauled away to the gulag proves that this isn't Soviet Russia, Iran, Nazi Germany, etc.
If somebody had told you at this time last year that the govt was using the IRS to target conservative speech, the DOJ had tapped the phones of journalists, and the NSA had access to ALL Verizon phone records you would have called them a paranoid wing nut, yet here we are.

At what point do we get to yell fire? If we wait until we can't yell fire then it is way too late.
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:07 PM   #52
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Interesting to see everyone else wearing the tin foil hat that people like me were said to be wearing when we were warning about this kind of over-reach in the first place.
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:07 PM   #53
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it's always crazy until it happens.

I love reading declassified shit from back in the 60's and prior -all the shit our government did etc.
makes you wonder WTF they're doing now.

I'm shocked at nothing the government does.
PREFACE - I'm not saying 911 was an inside job; BUT in 40 years if it comes out it was/we had knowledge of it and let it happen.............not surprised in the least.
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:11 PM   #54
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It does truly surprise me the number of people that say "Oh if you aren't doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about."

There's nothing paranoid about thinking this is way over the line. And the beauty of it is enough people are going to sit around attacking the other side... they neglect the fact that both parties had a hand in this and both parties defended it today.
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:57 PM   #55
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Old 06-06-2013, 05:07 PM   #56
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http://m.washingtonpost.com/investig...7_story_1.html

Read that.
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Old 06-06-2013, 05:26 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by RaiderH8r View Post
If somebody had told you at this time last year that the govt was using the IRS to target conservative speech, the DOJ had tapped the phones of journalists, and the NSA had access to ALL Verizon phone records you would have called them a paranoid wing nut, yet here we are.

At what point do we get to yell fire? If we wait until we can't yell fire then it is way too late.
The first one is bit of a stretch and the second simply did not happen.
Kind of undermines your argument a bit when you can't even present it honestly.
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:14 PM   #58
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:18 PM   #59
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I will enthusiastically support a libertarian candidate or even a dedicated small-government Republican candidate next election cycle, provided y'all can find one that doesn't have a religious bent or an anti-minority bent. I'm beyond fed up with the Democrats' bullshit during this administration.
Welcome to the club we had Mitt batshit as the only option last time~
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:20 PM   #60
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Bush ...same pos you voted for twice. God I hate Republicans.
Only about 25% of the voters elected Bush if I recall correctly. I may be wrong, but I recall that only about half the voting age public actually voted his second time around, and that Bush got about half of the votes.
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