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Old 06-11-2013, 09:59 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Animal Cruelty

What's DC's general take on the issue of animal cruelty?

Do you think it's an issue worth spending governmental resources over to combat?

Do you think there should be harsh punishments for egregious violations of animal cruelty?

Do you think regular offenders of animal cruelty should face prison time or property seizure?

Do you think that undercover investigators of animal cruelty should be punished by law for revealing their findings?
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Old 06-12-2013, 02:57 PM   #76
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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As humans, I believe we have the moral obligation to ensure that other living things do not suffer needlessly.

I could care less about laws in this regard, but, like most things, laws will be needed because the average joe is a dick.

Factory Farms do need to be better regulated. The animal abuse is one thing, but that abuse can often lead to contaminated products.

Of course, that is why large bags of chicken that restaurants receive smell more of ammonia than anything else.
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Last edited by Loneiguana; 06-12-2013 at 03:00 PM.. Reason: Edited to address factory farms
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Old 06-12-2013, 02:58 PM   #77
HonestChieffan HonestChieffan is offline
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
As humans, I believe we have the moral obligation to ensure that other living things do not suffer needlessly.

I could care less about laws in this regard, but, like most things, laws will be needed because the average joe is a dick.

Hey Joe. Hows things?
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:05 PM   #78
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Hey Joe. Hows things?
Don't be a Dick
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:29 PM   #79
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Don't be a Dick
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:45 PM   #80
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Isn't this something states can and do handle?
yeah, this is a state issue. Within THAT context, fighting animal cruelty is a worthwhile goal if properly prioritized, but it shouldn't exist as an issue in congress.
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Old 06-13-2013, 06:18 AM   #81
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This is pretty much my one and only concern in regards to this matter.

On an intellectual level, I draw very little distinction between an ant, a fish, a chicken or a dog. We as a society have no problem with killing ants in all sorts of horrific ways or stabbing fish in the mouth with a hook when they go to grab a bite to eat or all the crappy conditions chickens are put through but if you kick a dog you better watch out because people will form a ****ing lynch mob for you. It's completely ridiculous when you look at it dispassionately. BUT (and this is a big but, like Sir Mix-A-Lot big) people who mistreat animals in what are not societally acceptable ways (unlike farming, fishing, insect control, etc) most likely have very very serious mental issues and are a few short steps away from full on sociopathy.

So basically I think animals are just animals and what many loons would consider "cruelty" is just silly over emotional nonsense. On the other hand, anyone who enjoys inflicting pain or discomfort on animals for no societally accepted reasonable utilitarian purpose is a dangerously unstable individual.

It's intellectually dishonest to pretend an ant has the same level of feeling and emotion that a dog does. Ants are bugs. They have simple nervous systems. They don't think, feel, or anything like that. Comparing a dog to an ant is like comparing people to ants. Dogs are MUCH closer to us than they are to those things.

Now if one wants to compare pigs and dogs (which have equal levels of intelligence) then game on... but bugs are bugs man.
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:31 AM   #82
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:32 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
As humans, I believe we have the moral obligation to ensure that other living things do not suffer needlessly.
Does this include plants? I always forget to water mine.
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:32 AM   #84
DementedLogic DementedLogic is offline
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Probably would also be worth reviewing if taxpayer subsidies are going to the worst offenders.
Taxpayer subsidies are the base of the problem. Subsidies are supposed to help struggling farmers but they do the opposite. Subsidies go to farmers based on their output. The more output they have, the more subsidies they get. Struggling farmers are actually excluded form the subsidies because they don't have enough output. Tax subsidies encourage factory farming. Eliminating them is not a form of backdoor regulation. Their current existence is a form of backdoor regulation against family farms. To remove tax subsidies would be backdoor deregulation which is much needed.
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:37 PM   #85
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Taxpayer subsidies are the base of the problem. Subsidies are supposed to help struggling farmers but they do the opposite. Subsidies go to farmers based on their output. The more output they have, the more subsidies they get. Struggling farmers are actually excluded form the subsidies because they don't have enough output. Tax subsidies encourage factory farming. Eliminating them is not a form of backdoor regulation. Their current existence is a form of backdoor regulation against family farms. To remove tax subsidies would be backdoor deregulation which is much needed.
Selectively offering tax breaks is a form of backdoor regulation. So is selectively applying tax penalties. It doesn't matter whether you're increasing taxation selectively or decreasing it, if you're using the variance to modify behavior it's backdoor regulation and it's a bad thing.
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Old 06-13-2013, 02:27 PM   #86
DementedLogic DementedLogic is offline
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Selectively offering tax breaks is a form of backdoor regulation. So is selectively applying tax penalties. It doesn't matter whether you're increasing taxation selectively or decreasing it, if you're using the variance to modify behavior it's backdoor regulation and it's a bad thing.
Right now we are doing just as you said, we are selectively offering tax breaks to modify behavior. Right now we are using the tax code to regulate agriculture. If we stopped doing so, that would not be additional regulation, that would be deregulation.
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Old 06-13-2013, 02:37 PM   #87
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Right now we are doing just as you said, we are selectively offering tax breaks to modify behavior. Right now we are using the tax code to regulate agriculture. If we stopped doing so, that would not be additional regulation, that would be deregulation.
I know. That's why I said we should stop doing it. Either I misunderstood when I assumed you were referring to my earlier post when you used the phrase "backdoor regulation" or you misunderstood what I meant in that post.

I'll clarify my position.

If we have a simple level of taxation where everyone pays the same proportion, then it's not regulation. If we have no taxation, it's not regulation. It's when we tax people at different rates depending on their behavior that we're essentially implementing a backdoor regulation through the tax code and I oppose this.* I think that you and I are in agreement on this.

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* BTW, I've recently learned that if I agree with something, it's neocon by definition, so removing these types of behavior modification incentives from the tax code is neocon.
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Old 06-13-2013, 03:20 PM   #88
DementedLogic DementedLogic is offline
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I know. That's why I said we should stop doing it. Either I misunderstood when I assumed you were referring to my earlier post when you used the phrase "backdoor regulation" or you misunderstood what I meant in that post.

I'll clarify my position.

If we have a simple level of taxation where everyone pays the same proportion, then it's not regulation. If we have no taxation, it's not regulation. It's when we tax people at different rates depending on their behavior that we're essentially implementing a backdoor regulation through the tax code and I oppose this.* I think that you and I are in agreement on this.

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* BTW, I've recently learned that if I agree with something, it's neocon by definition, so removing these types of behavior modification incentives from the tax code is neocon.
I misunderstood your original post. And if removing government subsidies is neocon, color me a neocon.
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Old 06-13-2013, 03:21 PM   #89
Buehler445 Buehler445 is online now
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There is a chicken farm right off of I-70, just east of the US-65 get off. Holy mother of hell does it stink when you drive past that place, and that smell lingers a good mile or so both ways. Smells like dirty socks and ass. Disgusting.
Chicken shit is really high in ammonia because they don't piss. It is the stinkiest of the shit. By a mile.

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Not necessarily. We're omnivores, it's perfectly moral to kill and eat animals.

Humanely, anyway. When we're subjecting animals to needless cruelty and mistreatment, I'd say that warrants legal recourse.
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You actually can get them to do it a healthier way. You could potentially set at least a base minimum of humane treatment for these places, for starters.

Nothing outrageous, of course. Just requiring that they not get stuffed into cages like batteries into a remote.

Sound reasonable to you?

I guess the thing I'm curious about, is that you're more disturbed by the pleasure people derive from cruelty than the cruelty themselves. If I had told you a dude got off on shoving chickens into cages like sardines, perhaps your answer would have been different. Because there's not much physical difference between that and physically beating/torturing/whatever a chicken.
Good luck with that.

All you will do is drive chicken farms out of business because they still sell their commodities on the open market where they have to compete with other countries who don't give a ****. So they will have higher costs and be less competitive. And goddamn you have to save your $.03/lb of chicken, so you'll buy the imported chicken from the country that doesn't give a ****, and stuffs them wherever they can stuff them.

If you don't believe me, fine, but it's already happened in the cattle industry with all the EPA bullshit that has come down in the last decade or so.

So yeah, fight for legislation that limits our harm to chickens. Kill an industry and import your meat from a country that doesn't give a ****.

Oh, and have you ever been around a chicken? They are seriously stupid. My BIL grew some and they were mind bogglingly worthless at anything except eating shitting and producing eggs. Grandpa tells me that when he had them, you'd have to run them in the coup in a storm because the dumb ****s would look up at the lightning with their mouths open and ****ing drown.
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Old 06-13-2013, 03:36 PM   #90
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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“[Government] regulation is an imperfect substitute for the accountability, and trust, built into a market in which food producers meet the gaze of eaters and vice versa.”
― Michael Pollan, In Defense of Food: An Eater's Manifesto
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