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Old 06-12-2013, 02:51 PM  
RNR RNR is offline
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Can we all agree on one thing?

Our government is broken and both parties suck~
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Old 06-12-2013, 11:10 PM   #46
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Special interests from both sides of the aisle are using the government as a personal piggy bank and robbing all normal working citizens blind – while they insidiousy keep us distracted bickering over partisan red herrings.
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Old 06-13-2013, 06:20 AM   #47
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD View Post
Honestly you couldn't be more wrong. I used to think that way until I actually looked at it. The two party(or more specifically final election being two candidates) is a truly brilliant piece of government. If we had everyone and their uncle running on the ballot you actually have a good chance of getting even more extreme people in office.

Why? When there are two people running you have to fight over the center of the electorate. If you're too extreme to one side or the other then the center of the populace won't vote for you. A two candidate final system actually helps moderate viewpoints..well in principle.

The problem is, in practice it doesn't always work out that way for two reasons. No 1 reason is gerrymandering. If you make a district 'safe' for one party then you're going to increase the likelihood of getting a crazy person in that district since the district is structured so almost no chance of voting for the other side even if they are more moderate than the crazy from the gerrymandered party. Ironically...and you'll almost never hear me say anything positive about California government, CA actually has a solution that 'helps' with this issue. Instead of the vote being the 1 from Dem and 1 from Rep, the final election are the two top vote getters in the primary, regardless of party. So you can have 2 Dems facing each other in the Nov elections or 2 Reps. It's not a perfect solution but helps moderate extremism to a bit.

The second issue is incumbents, incumbents have a massive advantage to get reelected. Part of the reason is they are rarely challenge in their own parties primary. When you have a party primary again the candidates are fighting over the center. But in a primary you are fighting for the center of your party, which tends to be far more to the 'right' or 'left' of the total electorate as a whole. Because your primary 'center' is far more extreme than the electorate you are giving the incumbent fodder to use against you in the main election to pitch you as not a moderate candidate and win that key central vote.

If you have 10 parties running in a general election it's likely you'll have many crowding the center(because that's where most people live) and only a few on the extremes on either side. With enough people fighting over the center, none of them will be able to get a consensus and you can have the extremist candidate win. While the extreme base may be small it wouldn't be shared among many candidates.

We actually want our politicians to always be moving to the center of the electorate. Unfortunately due to gerrymandering and lack of single term limits that tends not to happen in practice.
I agree and will add to it. Huxley sums it up nicely in Brave New World Revisited:


" prefer to make nonsense of democratic procedures by appealing almost exclusively to the ignorance and irrationality of the electors. “Both parties,” we were told in 1956 by the editor of a leading business journal, “will merchandize their candidates and issues by the same methods that business has developed to sell goods. These include scientific selection of appeals and planned repetition. . . . Radio spot announcements and ads will repeat phrases with a planned intensity. Billboards will push slogans of proven power. . . . Candidates need, in addition to rich voices and good diction, to be able to look ‘sincerely’ at the TV camera.”

The political merchandisers appeal only to the weaknesses of voters, never to their potential strength. They make no attempt to educate the masses into becoming fit for self-government; they are content merely to manipulate and exploit them. For this purpose all the resources of psychology and the social sciences are mobilized and set to work. Carefully selected samples of the electorate are given “interviews in depth.” These interviews in depth reveal the unconscious fears and wishes most prevalent in a given society at the time of an election. Phrases and images aimed at allaying or, if necessary, enhancing these fears, at satisfying these wishes, at least symbolically, are then chosen by the experts, tried out on readers and audiences, changed or improved in the light of the information thus obtained. After which the political campaign is ready for the mass communicators. All that is now needed is money and a candidate who can be coached to look “sincere.” Under the new dispensation, political principles and plans for specific action have come to lose most of their importance. The personality of the candidate and the way he is projected by the advertising experts are the things that really matter."
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Old 06-13-2013, 07:27 AM   #48
Dave Lane Dave Lane is offline
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I basically agree, there are good people on each side but this log jam is beyond stupid.
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Old 06-13-2013, 07:37 AM   #49
KC_Lee KC_Lee is offline
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Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
Special interests from both sides of the aisle are using the government as a personal piggy bank and robbing all normal working citizens blind – while they insidiousy keep us distracted bickering over partisan red herrings.
I believe the term you a looking for is crony capitalism. It is rampant on both sides of the political spectrum.
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:28 AM   #50
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The people who are easily fooled and who are consistently short-sighted and selfish. Yes.
Those must be the ones in the recent polls on this topic, who voted "not being very concerned."
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:29 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
Of course. I just think Barry and Mi-Mi have taken it to another level. Point is, it is indicative of the bigger problem.
That's how these politicians operate. Play off the dislike of the former guy by promising change and restoring hope. Then do the same things but on steroids.
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:40 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Those must be the ones in the recent polls on this topic, who voted "not being very concerned."
It's actually the collective representation of all of us.
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:50 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
It's actually the collective representation of all of us.
Generalities won't do. Not everyone fits that description and who we say may fit is often an opinion. What ever happened to the idea of individuals being unique?
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:56 AM   #54
patteeu patteeu is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Generalities won't do. Not everyone fits that description and who we say may fit is often an opinion. What ever happened to the idea of individuals being unique?
The results of our elections define us (voters) collectively. I doesn't matter that as individuals, you and I and every other voter disagrees with the results from time to time.
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Old 06-13-2013, 10:07 AM   #55
Ace Gunner Ace Gunner is offline
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
It's actually the collective representation of all of us.
which part? the broken? or the suck part?

Not that I agree with your idylic view.
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Old 06-13-2013, 10:25 AM   #56
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which part? the broken? or the suck part?

Not that I agree with your idylic view.
Post 31. You should look up the word idyllic in the dictionary.
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Old 06-13-2013, 10:53 AM   #57
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The results of our elections define us (voters) collectively.
Nope

Quote:
I doesn't matter that as individuals, you and I and every other voter disagrees with the results from time to time.
Yeah, so.
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:37 PM   #58
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And that they are closer in practice than they might be in principle...in the end they are both corrupt.
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Old 06-13-2013, 05:20 PM   #59
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You can't blame business. They are just trying to get a leg up on their competition. You can blame the politicians who are more then eager to accept the money and favors who push through the rules.

As government gets bigger it becomes more imperative that businesses have someone in government on their side. It is no longer fine to just concentrate on your business as Microsoft found out and now Apple are finding out. You have to have that pull or the politicians will demand that you pay them off.

Also, the businesses are not responsible for things like the War on Drugs, civil asset forfeiture, the surveillance state, the security theater at airports, or the taxes that the government forces them to collect, and sometimes prevents them from displaying, from their customers.
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