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Old 06-22-2013, 12:18 PM  
mnchiefsguy mnchiefsguy is offline
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Obama administration suing to force companies to hire criminals

Apparently being a convicted criminal is now a protected class:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...al-background/

Seems silly to me....if a company does not wish to hire employees with a criminal record, they should not be forced too. Is Obama going to cover the business's losses when a criminal decides to help himself to the cash register?
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Old 06-23-2013, 01:52 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by notorious View Post
Soooo, you guys want to take away an additional deterrent to a person about to commit a crime?
Excellent Point!
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Old 06-23-2013, 01:57 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
As an employer, you have the right to ignore any mistakes a person might make. Forcing that thinking on all employers though is just plain wrong.
It's special interest legislation. It violates the employer's rights, since there is no right a job. You see where this could lead with any progressive?

For loneiguana, this policy is an example of fascist economics.
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Old 06-23-2013, 01:59 PM   #78
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Just develop a personality test covering certain things....could be away around this if it became law whether by a court or otherwise. Then the left will try to call that discriminatory.
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Old 06-23-2013, 02:25 PM   #79
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So the link in the OP is to FOXNews, so in the interest of making sure I'm not reading something biased, I found the same story, only from the Huffington Post. It's not much different, but it has a few more details.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3428484.html

Assuming everything I read is true and complete, the woman at Dollar General who committed no crime should certainly have her job offered back. The other one doesn't have anyone to blame but herself for getting busted for drugs six years ago; of course that means it's going to be harder for her to have a job, that's kind of the way it is.

As for BMW, it shows a clear lack of dedication to your workers (not to mention bad business sense), to change the rules about eligibility, and kick competent, dedicated workers out on the street because what used to be OK no longer is. Civil rights has shown us that employers don't - and shouldn't - have absolute say over who gets hired, so if it turns out that there's a serious case here, this is what the courts are for. I say they deserve their chance to plead their case.
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Old 06-23-2013, 03:29 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Aries Walker View Post
So the link in the OP is to FOXNews, so in the interest of making sure I'm not reading something biased, I found the same story, only from the Huffington Post. It's not much different, but it has a few more details.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3428484.html

Assuming everything I read is true and complete, the woman at Dollar General who committed no crime should certainly have her job offered back. The other one doesn't have anyone to blame but herself for getting busted for drugs six years ago; of course that means it's going to be harder for her to have a job, that's kind of the way it is.

As for BMW, it shows a clear lack of dedication to your workers (not to mention bad business sense), to change the rules about eligibility, and kick competent, dedicated workers out on the street because what used to be OK no longer is. Civil rights has shown us that employers don't - and shouldn't - have absolute say over who gets hired, so if it turns out that there's a serious case here, this is what the courts are for. I say they deserve their chance to plead their case.
Yeah, because the Huffington Post is just a bastion of unbiased reporting...

I agree with the first part...the Dollar General woman should be offered her job back, she did nothing wrong, and the company should admit its error and make the situation right.

I disagree partially with your last part... Employers should not have absolute say over who gets hired, but they should have that say when it comes to considering a criminal record. Putting a criminal record in the same class as religion, race, gender, and sexual orientation is not appropriate.
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Old 06-23-2013, 04:19 PM   #81
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I'm not opposed to certain crimes prohibiting one from gaining employment, but I don't think that the separation between misdemeanor and felony is always the most efficient determinant of that.

Isn't family violence battery a misdemeanor in some places? To me, that's a far more egregious crime than getting caught with 60 grams of pot.
I think I'm a private employer, I should be able to not hire you because I don't like your shoes. Anytime I put an ad out, I get 50 applications and I only have so much time to cull through them. Getting rid of a few of them with a simple "have you ever been convicted of a crime so severe that jail time is mandatory" seems pretty damn reasonable to me.

The courts expanded the 13th Amendment to apply to private employers because of the direct economic impact created by racism. Essentially, the courts have used the commerce clause to justify expanding a prohibition on government conduct to the private sector. In the end, I don't have any real problem with that.

But this kind of ruling is exactly what people like me worry about - the continued erosion of the rights of private citizens under the guise of the Constitution. It took the creation of the doctrine of disparate impact, but now the Federal Government is honest to God using the 13th amendment as justification to prevent you enacting facially neutral hiring practices.

You'll support that? How? Please tell me how this isn't a gross over-expansion of the Constitution. The prohibition against involuntary servitude is now being used to justify Washington politicians telling me I can't make a concerted decision not to hire any Missouri felons. The Federal Government does not have the right to do this.

As to your position regarding of the relative severity of specific offenses, if you're an employer you'd be stupid to ask what someone was convicted of. At this point, you'd be a fool to even mention a conviction in an application or interview because the moment you don't hire said felon because of the conviction, you're going to run the risk of that guy lawyering up and expanding this law to cover more and more precise questions/decisions. And again, before you argue that won't happen, 15 years ago this very ruling itself would've been inconceivable to Constitutional scholars.

This is just bad law - period. It's bad law because it is WAY overly broad and it uses a justification for Federal interference that is already being used to create more and more restrictions on private employers.
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Old 06-23-2013, 07:16 PM   #82
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Teaching is a worthy profession (overpaid but worthy). We do need fewer government jobs and more private sector ones.
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Old 06-23-2013, 07:41 PM   #83
'Hamas' Jenkins 'Hamas' Jenkins is offline
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Originally Posted by DJ's left nut View Post
I think I'm a private employer, I should be able to not hire you because I don't like your shoes. Anytime I put an ad out, I get 50 applications and I only have so much time to cull through them. Getting rid of a few of them with a simple "have you ever been convicted of a crime so severe that jail time is mandatory" seems pretty damn reasonable to me.

The courts expanded the 13th Amendment to apply to private employers because of the direct economic impact created by racism. Essentially, the courts have used the commerce clause to justify expanding a prohibition on government conduct to the private sector. In the end, I don't have any real problem with that.

But this kind of ruling is exactly what people like me worry about - the continued erosion of the rights of private citizens under the guise of the Constitution. It took the creation of the doctrine of disparate impact, but now the Federal Government is honest to God using the 13th amendment as justification to prevent you enacting facially neutral hiring practices.

You'll support that? How? Please tell me how this isn't a gross over-expansion of the Constitution. The prohibition against involuntary servitude is now being used to justify Washington politicians telling me I can't make a concerted decision not to hire any Missouri felons. The Federal Government does not have the right to do this.

As to your position regarding of the relative severity of specific offenses, if you're an employer you'd be stupid to ask what someone was convicted of. At this point, you'd be a fool to even mention a conviction in an application or interview because the moment you don't hire said felon because of the conviction, you're going to run the risk of that guy lawyering up and expanding this law to cover more and more precise questions/decisions. And again, before you argue that won't happen, 15 years ago this very ruling itself would've been inconceivable to Constitutional scholars.

This is just bad law - period. It's bad law because it is WAY overly broad and it uses a justification for Federal interference that is already being used to create more and more restrictions on private employers.
I understand your concerns, but I also think that you are generalizing my point of view.

I empathize with the plight of a small business owner to reject who they see fit up a certain degree. I think it's bullshit that someone with ten employees could refuse to hire someone because they are gay, Hispanic, a Jew, etc., but I also understand that an enforcement division that would make sure such things didn't happen would be far too cumbersome and wouldn't allow for small sample size variations. Thus, I'm perfectly fine with the EEOC cutoff of 15-20 employees, even if it does create a loophole for tons of discriminatory hiring practices amongst small businesses. I can't speak to how often that happens, but I'm certain that it is neither absent nor ubiquitous.

I also believe that companies have the right to fire people for lying on applications. If that includes an undisclosed criminal conviction, so be it.

That said, I'm not a fan of practices similar to BMWs. Whether or not 70+% of those who were fired are black isn't material to the issue for me. What I find troubling is that some of these individuals worked for the company for over ten years without incident and were then fired without looking into the type or nature of the crime committed.

Perhaps a lot of these issues of wrangling could be solved by this question on a form:

Have you ever been convicted of a violent crime?

I have no problem with excluding violent individuals from areas of society because, but I find it altogether foolish and intractable that we punish nonviolent offenders in an equal manner when seeking employment.
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Old 06-23-2013, 09:15 PM   #84
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Yeah, because the Huffington Post is just a bastion of unbiased reporting...
Yeah, I deliberately a lefty to balance out the righty. Usually the truth lies somewhere in the middle, but this time they were mostly in agreement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy View Post
I agree with the first part...the Dollar General woman should be offered her job back, she did nothing wrong, and the company should admit its error and make the situation right.

I disagree partially with your last part... Employers should not have absolute say over who gets hired, but they should have that say when it comes to considering a criminal record. Putting a criminal record in the same class as religion, race, gender, and sexual orientation is not appropriate.
I can see what you mean. When they bought the coke/punched that cop/robbed the Piggly Wiggly/whatever they did, it was a conscious choice made by an adult, which differentiates it from race and gender and stuff, which is just the hand they were dealt, so I see your point there, if I read you right. On top of that, though, there is the assertion that is ultimately due to race that they were let go. It doesn't necessarily say that BMW was wrong, but that it is for a court to decide. So there they go.
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:08 AM   #85
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More right wing whoring and race baiting from the same gop sheep...continue to your slaughter sheep.
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Old 06-24-2013, 06:06 AM   #86
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More right wing whoring and race baiting from the same gop sheep...continue to your slaughter sheep.
Race card post.
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Old 06-24-2013, 06:47 AM   #87
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He just needs to come clean and sport an Al Sharpton sig.

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Old 06-24-2013, 07:37 AM   #88
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A business should be able to hire who ever they want.


Race, Sex, etc.


They just need to be aware that there are consequences. You could miss out on a great employee, word of mouth will backfire on you, etc.
Excellent post.
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Old 06-24-2013, 08:28 AM   #89
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:47 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins View Post
I understand your concerns, but I also think that you are generalizing my point of view.

I empathize with the plight of a small business owner to reject who they see fit up a certain degree. I think it's bullshit that someone with ten employees could refuse to hire someone because they are gay, Hispanic, a Jew, etc., but I also understand that an enforcement division that would make sure such things didn't happen would be far too cumbersome and wouldn't allow for small sample size variations. Thus, I'm perfectly fine with the EEOC cutoff of 15-20 employees, even if it does create a loophole for tons of discriminatory hiring practices amongst small businesses. I can't speak to how often that happens, but I'm certain that it is neither absent nor ubiquitous.

I also believe that companies have the right to fire people for lying on applications. If that includes an undisclosed criminal conviction, so be it.

That said, I'm not a fan of practices similar to BMWs. Whether or not 70+% of those who were fired are black isn't material to the issue for me. What I find troubling is that some of these individuals worked for the company for over ten years without incident and were then fired without looking into the type or nature of the crime committed.

Perhaps a lot of these issues of wrangling could be solved by this question on a form:

Have you ever been convicted of a violent crime?

I have no problem with excluding violent individuals from areas of society because, but I find it altogether foolish and intractable that we punish nonviolent offenders in an equal manner when seeking employment.
But here's the problem with the case itself - you can't ask if someone's been convicted of a violent crime. Because I guarantee you the violent crime rates are higher among blacks than whites as well.

By deciding this case on disparate impact grounds, the courts have made it impossible to do any reasonable degree of parsing through these applicants.

The old saying is absolutely true - "Bad facts make bad law". Taking BMW's conduct here and using it to create law built around disparate impact is reckless and stupid. It's created very serious questions regarding exactly what can and cannot be asked, but the holding presently indicates that nothing can be asked safely.

In an attempt to punish BMW for engaging in surgery by shotgun, the courts created an overly broad legal fiction that now prevents employers from being able to ask questions that they should be able to ask without fear of staring down the barrel of a damn civil rights complaint.

I personally don't mind what BMW did, but I can understand those that do. The problem here is that a shortsighted court has issued a piss-poor holding as the remedy to that conduct and it's going to have implications far beyond just BMW's hiring practices.

Bad facts made really really bad law.
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