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Old 06-22-2013, 12:18 PM  
mnchiefsguy mnchiefsguy is offline
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Obama administration suing to force companies to hire criminals

Apparently being a convicted criminal is now a protected class:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...al-background/

Seems silly to me....if a company does not wish to hire employees with a criminal record, they should not be forced too. Is Obama going to cover the business's losses when a criminal decides to help himself to the cash register?
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:50 AM   #106
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Old 06-25-2013, 11:36 AM   #107
'Hamas' Jenkins 'Hamas' Jenkins is offline
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Originally Posted by DJ's left nut View Post
But here's the problem with the case itself - you can't ask if someone's been convicted of a violent crime. .
You absolutely can and do. The act of a background check is a de facto asking of that question.

BMW is being litigated by the EEOC for this reason:

In guidance for employers on compliance with the Civil Rights Act, the EEOC says that while it's not against the law to use an applicant's criminal history in employment decisions, employers should consider "the nature of the crime, the time elapsed, and the nature of the job."



The EEOC feels that BMW did neither of the first two when re-screening existing employers, hence the suit.
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Old 06-25-2013, 01:39 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins View Post
You absolutely can and do. The act of a background check is a de facto asking of that question.

BMW is being litigated by the EEOC for this reason:

In guidance for employers on compliance with the Civil Rights Act, the EEOC says that while it's not against the law to use an applicant's criminal history in employment decisions, employers should consider "the nature of the crime, the time elapsed, and the nature of the job."



The EEOC feels that BMW did neither of the first two when re-screening existing employers, hence the suit.
I'll concede, my argument is a slippery slope one.

But the courts opening this up to a disparate impact challenge means that I'll have to go in there and subject my decision to hire/fire to a strict scrutiny analysis which is a brutally high hurdle to clear.

This could have been remedied without bringing racial bias into it, but the EEOC needed a federal basis to intervene and so race was their easiest avenue.

They wanted in, so by God they used explosives to break the lock, regardless of the consequences that may arise.
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:56 PM   #109
'Hamas' Jenkins 'Hamas' Jenkins is offline
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Originally Posted by DJ's left nut View Post
I'll concede, my argument is a slippery slope one.

But the courts opening this up to a disparate impact challenge means that I'll have to go in there and subject my decision to hire/fire to a strict scrutiny analysis which is a brutally high hurdle to clear.

This could have been remedied without bringing racial bias into it, but the EEOC needed a federal basis to intervene and so race was their easiest avenue.

They wanted in, so by God they used explosives to break the lock, regardless of the consequences that may arise.
I'm legitimately interested. What do you see the long term implications of this being? What have been some of the more problematic forms of litigation you've seen to this point WRT: interpretation?
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Old 06-25-2013, 03:50 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins View Post
I can understand terminating someone for lying on a job application, but what happens if an employee is convicted of a crime while working, still works dependably, and then is fired for something akin to what BMW allegedly did despite the fact that it in no way impacted their work performance?

Sometimes I wonder if people understand what they are actually advocating for. If someone makes a singular mistake, and pays for it in either fines, restitution, community service, or jail time, why should they continue to pay for the rest of their working lives?

Supporting the viewpoint you are suggests that people can never atone for mistakes.
What if a company determines that the person's criminal record hurts your reputation? For example, what if you are an accounting consultant and your crime was stealing money at a gas station? See where the slippery slope is? Who gets to decide what's grounds for firing and not?

Working in the corporate world... if you want to know why the American economy is slipping, take a look at what people get away with at work without getting fired. To get rid of a lousy worker, you have to go through an enormous HR nightmare. I'm not a cold person, but no company should have to work that hard to get rid of somebody who sucks at their job.
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Old 06-25-2013, 03:56 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
What if a company determines that the person's criminal record hurts your reputation? For example, what if you are an accounting consultant and your crime was stealing money at a gas station? See where the slippery slope is? Who gets to decide what's grounds for firing and not?

Working in the corporate world... if you want to know why the American economy is slipping, take a look at what people get away with at work without getting fired. To get rid of a lousy worker, you have to go through an enormous HR nightmare. I'm not a cold person, but no company should have to work that hard to get rid of somebody who sucks at their job.
THIS X Eleventy billion!!! I just fired someone today. I had to build over a month's worth of evidence to do so. Probably wasted $15-20k to do so. Guy should have been gone in May after his first timecard fraud. Having a corporate office in San Jose doesn't friggin' help any. California morons
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Old 06-25-2013, 04:13 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins View Post
I'm legitimately interested. What do you see the long term implications of this being? What have been some of the more problematic forms of litigation you've seen to this point WRT: interpretation?
Almost entirely the introduction and broader application of disparate impact to private hiring practices.

I really really thought jurisprudence was moving away from disparate impact. This shows a sharp turn in the opposite direction. Suddenly it's not just that schools, etc... need to keep an eye out for 'culturally biased' testing, now private employers have to legitimately wonder if questions they're asking potential applicants could have a socio-economic bias. Because let's be honest, if there's a socio-economic bias, there's going to be a disparate impact on minorities; the two go in lock-step.

So typing tests - my office has always had them and always will. That said, for a vast majority of the part-time staff we hire, hunt and peck typing will be fine. That said, there's a definite socio-economic bias in typing tests. We also do speed-reading tests as part of the application process and you're going to run into socio-economic bias there as well.

Disparate impact being used as the focus of this ruling could easily lead to the next challenge being something like typing tests that cull impoverished applicants from the pool. And there's little question in my mind that there will be an easy link to make from poverty rates to minority status. Suddenly I'm in a courtroom with the burden on me rather than the challenging party because I'm subject to strict scrutiny due to the strained application of the 13th.

I hate the box that his ruling has opened or at the very least broadened.
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Old 06-25-2013, 05:18 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
What if a company determines that the person's criminal record hurts your reputation? For example, what if you are an accounting consultant and your crime was stealing money at a gas station? See where the slippery slope is? Who gets to decide what's grounds for firing and not?

Working in the corporate world... if you want to know why the American economy is slipping, take a look at what people get away with at work without getting fired. To get rid of a lousy worker, you have to go through an enormous HR nightmare. I'm not a cold person, but no company should have to work that hard to get rid of somebody who sucks at their job.
I don't disagree that there are specific crimes which would be damaging for the hiring company, and neither does the EEOC, who is filing the suit. Again:

In guidance for employers on compliance with the Civil Rights Act, the EEOC says that while it's not against the law to use an applicant's criminal history in employment decisions, employers should consider "the nature of the crime, the time elapsed, and the nature of the job."
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Old 06-25-2013, 05:20 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by DJ's left nut View Post
Almost entirely the introduction and broader application of disparate impact to private hiring practices.

I really really thought jurisprudence was moving away from disparate impact. This shows a sharp turn in the opposite direction. Suddenly it's not just that schools, etc... need to keep an eye out for 'culturally biased' testing, now private employers have to legitimately wonder if questions they're asking potential applicants could have a socio-economic bias. Because let's be honest, if there's a socio-economic bias, there's going to be a disparate impact on minorities; the two go in lock-step.

So typing tests - my office has always had them and always will. That said, for a vast majority of the part-time staff we hire, hunt and peck typing will be fine. That said, there's a definite socio-economic bias in typing tests. We also do speed-reading tests as part of the application process and you're going to run into socio-economic bias there as well.

Disparate impact being used as the focus of this ruling could easily lead to the next challenge being something like typing tests that cull impoverished applicants from the pool. And there's little question in my mind that there will be an easy link to make from poverty rates to minority status. Suddenly I'm in a courtroom with the burden on me rather than the challenging party because I'm subject to strict scrutiny due to the strained application of the 13th.

I hate the box that his ruling has opened or at the very least broadened.
Makes one yearn for a philosopher-king/queen.
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Old 06-25-2013, 10:16 PM   #115
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I don't disagree that there are specific crimes which would be damaging for the hiring company, and neither does the EEOC, who is filing the suit. Again:

In guidance for employers on compliance with the Civil Rights Act, the EEOC says that while it's not against the law to use an applicant's criminal history in employment decisions, employers should consider "the nature of the crime, the time elapsed, and the nature of the job."
That's what I don't like about it. There's so much subjectivity to it that you get nervous about firing somebody, even when you have just cause. Hence, the slippery slope. Because who decides what crime is too heinous or what the appropriate nature of the job should be?

It's not like we're talking about personal handicaps or anything like that. We're talking mostly about crimes where the person who did it gets held accountable for their mistake.
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Old 06-26-2013, 08:07 AM   #116
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Old 06-26-2013, 12:55 PM   #117
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So should Aaron Hernandez not have been released by the Patriots? He has not even been convicted of a crime yet, merely charged. Shouldn't all employers have the same rights as an NFL team? In the grand scheme of things, there are many, many jobs that are more important than playing football, so if the nature of that job is such that am employee can be terminated for merely being charged with a crime, should employers of much more impactful jobs (banks, hospitals, corporate accounting, etc.) have the same option?
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:34 PM   #118
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So should Aaron Hernandez not have been released by the Patriots? He has not even been convicted of a crime yet, merely charged.
Yes. They did what they felt was best for their organization and team.

Quote:
Shouldn't all employers have the same rights as an NFL team?
Yes
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