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Old 06-27-2013, 10:17 AM  
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Uncle Lamar Wants to Abolish the Minimum Wage

Because those Wal Mart workers are overpaid, damn it! This guy is the ranking GOP member of the Senate Labor Committee. Wow....

http://tinyurl.com/omaxldm

WASHINGTON -- Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.), the ranking Republican on the Senate's labor committee, said in a hearing Tuesday that he would prefer to see the minimum wage abolished.

Alexander's declaration came amid a back-and-forth between a witness from the conservative Heritage Foundation and Sens. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) and Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.). The trio had been debating what kind of impact a higher minimum wage would have on a theoretical worker, and it seemed Sanders wanted to know whether the witness opposed raising the minimum wage or having a minimum wage at all.

"There are some conservatives who do not believe in the concept of the minimum wage," Sanders said to the witness, James Sherk, a labor policy analyst at the think tank.

"Let me jump in," Alexander then said. "I do not believe in it."

The policy debate had been lively, with interruptions all around, and Sanders grew excited at Alexander's interjection.

"So we have a ranking member," Sanders responded. "Alright! There we go!"
Sanders turned to Alexander.

"So you do not believe in the concept of the minimum wage?"

"That's correct," Alexander responded.

"You would abolish the minimum wage?"

"Correct."

"And if someone had to work for two bucks an hour," Sanders continued, "they would work for two bucks an hour?"

Alexander went on to compare a higher minimum wage to a form of welfare. Instead of boosting it, as Congress is now considering, he suggested a common conservative alternative to a federal wage floor -- a higher earned-income tax credit.

"No, I would go for a much more targeted approach," Alexander said. "The question I want to ask, if we are interested in social justice, and we want to honor work instead of getting a welfare check, then wouldn't a more efficient way to help people in poverty be to increase the earned-income tax credit rather than do what we always do here, which is come up with a big idea and send the bill to somebody else? What we're doing is coming up with the big idea and sending the bill to the employer.

"Why don't we just pay for the big ideas we come up with," he continued. "And if we want to create a standard of living for people that's much higher than what they have today, then let's attach the dollars to the job and everybody pay for it. I don't want to do that. But if we were going to do it, then I think that's the way we should do it."

"That's a very interesting discussion for another time," Sanders said with a slight laugh.

Sanders then turned back to Sherk and asked him if he'd support a bill sponsored by Alexander abolishing the minimum wage.

"I believe the minimum wage hurts its intended beneficiaries," Sherk responded. "I do not support the concept of the minimum wage."

"I appreciate your honesty," Sanders replied.
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Old 06-30-2013, 05:46 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
Maybe you can name a country that has succeeded based of the fantasy economic ideology of BEP.
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Old 06-30-2013, 07:07 PM   #137
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You basing your argument on the idea that the minimum wage is high. It isn't. Not by current poverty level standards or by historical standards.
I am basing this on the idea that now you are talking about wages purely from a "what is the morally right thing to do" standpoint. Not based on what helps the economy.

The morally right thing to do is to have enough jobs available for everyone to have. When you raise minimum wage, you hurt the lower class because there are going to be significantly less jobs available.
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Old 07-01-2013, 07:16 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
I am basing this on the idea that now you are talking about wages purely from a "what is the morally right thing to do" standpoint. Not based on what helps the economy.

The morally right thing to do is to have enough jobs available for everyone to have. When you raise minimum wage, you hurt the lower class because there are going to be significantly less jobs available.
No, I base this belief on what helps the economy based on historical evidence.

Nothing you said is based on any evidence.

The highest point for the minimum wage in this country (over 10 an our adjusted for inflation) was during one of the biggest booms for the U.S. economy.

I have provided evidence that the minimum wage does not lead to job loss.

Where is your evidence?
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Old 07-01-2013, 07:31 AM   #139
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Like I said, you just make it up as you go along.

The post WW2 boom and the American growth story until 1972 was driven by the middle class. You are part of the idiot fringe to argue otherwise.

And Henry Ford paid his workers more so they would buy his cars. Pick up a real history book sometime.
The boom was simply the fact that we were building EVERYTHING for the industrialized but destroyed by WW2 world.

The rest of the world is on their feet and making their own shit, or making shit for others at cheaper pay now.
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Old 07-01-2013, 07:33 AM   #140
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The boom was simply the fact that we were building EVERYTHING for the industrialized but destroyed by WW2 world.

The rest of the world is on their feet and making their own shit, or making shit for others at cheaper pay now.
Not true.
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Old 07-01-2013, 08:47 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
The morally right thing to do is to have enough jobs available for everyone to have. When you raise minimum wage, you hurt the lower class because there are going to be significantly less jobs available.

Liberals don't understand **why** higher minimum wages will lead to job losses. (And they do):
http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin...-destroy-jobs/


Simple reason: low-skilled (and often times uneducated) labor just isn't very valuable. If the business is faced with automating something or paying shitty labor, he's indifferent beyond a certain point. Unfortunately for the lower rung (of which I was once part of!), that certain point isn't very high. You have to make yourself valuable to an employer to get hired.
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Old 07-01-2013, 11:17 AM   #142
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loneiguana, you have an anti-capitalist mentality. The roots of your ideas stem from Marx. In this thread you advocate wage controls and on single-payer healthcare you advocate price controls. This is an attack on property rights...you just don't advocate outright seizure of that property by the state, but force owners to do your bidding, even though the business isn't yours. So, although, Marxian at the heart, you rely on the fascist model to carrying it all out.
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Last edited by BucEyedPea; 07-01-2013 at 01:15 PM..
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Old 07-01-2013, 11:17 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Maybe you can name a country that has succeeded based of the fantasy economic ideology of our Founders.
FYP

That ideology, was for the greater part more in play in the early days of the Republic than you'll ever admit. What do you think the American War for Independence was really about? It was a reaction to the mercantilist policies of Great Britain which restricted free-markets. There was still more of it in the 19th century, despite some return of mercantilist or mercantilist-flavored policies, particularly as regards banking.
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Old 07-01-2013, 11:30 AM   #144
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You want a modern example of a free-market today?

That would be Hong Kong.

I posted that before and detailed it. And some rules or regs does not make a market un-free. Hong Kong has been at the top of the list for economic freedom indicators since the 1980's. America was 4th place but has dropped in recent years much lower. Meanwhile, some alleged socialist utopias that have been working, such as Sweden, have begun to liberalized it's economy toward more freedom.

Funny how the so-called "liberals" of today, are so anti freedom when it comes to markets and economics. They are actually illiberal on such things. It used to be different in the late 18th and then the 19th centuries.

But it's really a stupid question because it's like asking during the aristocratic days:
"If society in the absence of a landed aristocracy is so great, why has it never existed before?"
Just a way to avoid the real issue.
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Old 07-01-2013, 11:42 AM   #145
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Okay just checked the HF's Economic Freedom index, since they're the only ones that measure this to my knowledge. Hong King still holds 4th place, but I believe their rating was higher than 85% at one time—around the 91 percentile. Switzerland has usually been near the top but may have dropped a bit too. Both are still ahead of America now. Even Chile beats us now. Just WoW!

Canada has moved up, thanks to the new Conservative policies in place when the liberals were voted out.

I recall the US once being in 4th place. Now we're in 10th place. Thanks Progressives ( both R and D kind) and especially Obama.


http://www.heritage.org/index/
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Old 07-01-2013, 11:52 AM   #146
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Can't find my post, fast enough anyways, on the list of panics/depressions in the 19th century in America. I had typed it out from a book. I'll look again later. But here's a list of panics/depressions/crises by century world-wide. There were more in the economic interventionist 20th century than the 19th. Didn't have time to study all the non-US ones but it's something that debunks the idea that intervention prevents such things, despite what Ivy League Universities teach. They omit much.

http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Financial_crisis
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:03 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Okay just checked the HF's Economic Freedom index, since they're the only ones that measure this to my knowledge. Hong King still holds 4th place, but I believe their rating was higher than 85% at one time—around the 91 percentile. Switzerland has usually been near the top but may have dropped a bit too. Both are still ahead of America now. Even Chile beats us now. Just WoW!

Canada has moved up, thanks to the new Conservative policies in place when the liberals were voted out.

I recall the US once being in 4th place. Now we're in 10th place. Thanks Progressives ( both R and D kind) and especially Obama.


http://www.heritage.org/index/
Heritage's economic freedom index is pure unadulerated bullshit. Color me not surprised you think it has any meaning.
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Old 07-01-2013, 04:23 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
Liberals don't understand **why** higher minimum wages will lead to job losses. (And they do):
http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin...-destroy-jobs/


Simple reason: low-skilled (and often times uneducated) labor just isn't very valuable. If the business is faced with automating something or paying shitty labor, he's indifferent beyond a certain point. Unfortunately for the lower rung (of which I was once part of!), that certain point isn't very high. You have to make yourself valuable to an employer to get hired.
Here is the evidence:

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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Studies on the Minimum Wage

Why Does the Minimum Wage Have No Discernible Effect on Employment? (2013) reviews the past two decades of research on the impact of minimum wage increases on employment: this study concludes that the weight of the evidence points to little or no effect of minimum wage increases on job growth. The study also finds that a review of the minimum wage literature commonly cited by minimum wage opponents is flawed because it is subjective, relies in large part on studies of wage increases in foreign countries, and fails to consider the most sophisticated and recent minimum wage studie

http://www.cepr.net/documents/public...ge-2013-02.pdf


Minimum Wage Effects Across State Borders (2010) provides the most sophisticated study to date of the effects of increases in the minimum wage on job growth in the United States. Taking advantage of the fact that a record number of states raised their minimum wages during the 1990s and 2000s – creating scores of differing minimum wage rates across the country – the study compares employment levels among every pair of neighboring U.S. counties that had differing minimum wage levels at any time between 1990 and 2006 and finds that higher minimum wages did not reduce employment.

http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/workingpapers/157-07.pdf

Minimum Wages and Employment: A Case Study of the Fast-Food Industry in New Jersey and Pennsylvania (1994) is a landmark study published by David Card and Alan Krueger in the American Economic Review examining employment at fast-food restaurants on both sides of the New Jersey-Pennsylvania border after New Jersey raised its minimum wage to $5.05 an hour while Pennsylvania’s minimum wage held constant. The authors conducted a phone survey of over 400 fast-food restaurants and found no evidence that the increase in the minimum wage in New Jersey led to job loss—in fact they found employment increased in fast-food restaurants in New Jersey. For this and related research, Card was awarded the John Bates Clark medal in 1995—the so-called “junior Nobel prize,” granted by the American Economics Association every two years to the best economist under forty.

http://emlab.berkeley.edu/~card/papers/njmin-aer.pdf

Bloomberg News, April 2012: "[A] wave of new economic research is disproving those arguments about job losses and youth employment. Previous studies tended not to control for regional economic trends that were already affecting employment levels, such as a manufacturing-dependent state that was shedding jobs. The new research looks at micro-level employment patterns for a more accurate employment picture. The studies find minimum-wage increases even provide an economic boost, albeit a small one, as strapped workers immediately spend their raises. Let us hope that states lead the way on the minimum wage, and that they tie increases to the cost of living, making endless rounds of legislation unnecessary. Then let us hope that fresh research and improved lives built on hard work compel Congress to follow.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...s-a-raise.html
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Old 07-01-2013, 04:23 PM   #149
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FYP

That ideology, was for the greater part more in play in the early days of the Republic than you'll ever admit. What do you think the American War for Independence was really about? It was a reaction to the mercantilist policies of Great Britain which restricted free-markets. There was still more of it in the 19th century, despite some return of mercantilist or mercantilist-flavored policies, particularly as regards banking.
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Old 07-01-2013, 04:26 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
loneiguana, you have an anti-capitalist mentality. The roots of your ideas stem from Marx. In this thread you advocate wage controls and on single-payer healthcare you advocate price controls. This is an attack on property rights...you just don't advocate outright seizure of that property by the state, but force owners to do your bidding, even though the business isn't yours. So, although, Marxian at the heart, you rely on the fascist model to carrying it all out.
Anti-capitalist?

Maybe in the eyes of a corporate fascist such as yourself.

A minimum wage is not wage control. Hyperbole more.

attack on property rights?
Let us see what a founding father said about taxes:

Benjamin Franklin to Robert Morris

25 Dec. 1783Writings 9:138
The Remissness of our People in Paying Taxes is highly blameable; the Unwillingness to pay them is still more so. I see, in some Resolutions of Town Meetings, a Remonstrance against giving Congress a Power to take, as they call it, the People's Money out of their Pockets, tho' only to pay the Interest and Principal of Debts duly contracted. They seem to mistake the Point. Money, justly due from the People, is their Creditors' Money, and no longer the Money of the People, who, if they withold it, should be compell'd to pay by some Law.

All Property, indeed, except the Savage's temporary Cabin, his Bow, his Matchcoat, and other little Acquisitions, absolutely necessary for his Subsistence, seems to me to be the Creature of public Convention. Hence the Public has the Right of Regulating Descents, and all other Conveyances of Property, and even of limiting the Quantity and the Uses of it. All the Property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other Laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick shall demand such Disposition. He that does not like civil Society on these Terms, let him retire and live among Savages. He can have no right to the benefits of Society, who will not pay his Club towards the Support of it.
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