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Old 06-27-2013, 10:17 AM  
gblowfish gblowfish is offline
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Uncle Lamar Wants to Abolish the Minimum Wage

Because those Wal Mart workers are overpaid, damn it! This guy is the ranking GOP member of the Senate Labor Committee. Wow....

http://tinyurl.com/omaxldm

WASHINGTON -- Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.), the ranking Republican on the Senate's labor committee, said in a hearing Tuesday that he would prefer to see the minimum wage abolished.

Alexander's declaration came amid a back-and-forth between a witness from the conservative Heritage Foundation and Sens. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) and Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.). The trio had been debating what kind of impact a higher minimum wage would have on a theoretical worker, and it seemed Sanders wanted to know whether the witness opposed raising the minimum wage or having a minimum wage at all.

"There are some conservatives who do not believe in the concept of the minimum wage," Sanders said to the witness, James Sherk, a labor policy analyst at the think tank.

"Let me jump in," Alexander then said. "I do not believe in it."

The policy debate had been lively, with interruptions all around, and Sanders grew excited at Alexander's interjection.

"So we have a ranking member," Sanders responded. "Alright! There we go!"
Sanders turned to Alexander.

"So you do not believe in the concept of the minimum wage?"

"That's correct," Alexander responded.

"You would abolish the minimum wage?"

"Correct."

"And if someone had to work for two bucks an hour," Sanders continued, "they would work for two bucks an hour?"

Alexander went on to compare a higher minimum wage to a form of welfare. Instead of boosting it, as Congress is now considering, he suggested a common conservative alternative to a federal wage floor -- a higher earned-income tax credit.

"No, I would go for a much more targeted approach," Alexander said. "The question I want to ask, if we are interested in social justice, and we want to honor work instead of getting a welfare check, then wouldn't a more efficient way to help people in poverty be to increase the earned-income tax credit rather than do what we always do here, which is come up with a big idea and send the bill to somebody else? What we're doing is coming up with the big idea and sending the bill to the employer.

"Why don't we just pay for the big ideas we come up with," he continued. "And if we want to create a standard of living for people that's much higher than what they have today, then let's attach the dollars to the job and everybody pay for it. I don't want to do that. But if we were going to do it, then I think that's the way we should do it."

"That's a very interesting discussion for another time," Sanders said with a slight laugh.

Sanders then turned back to Sherk and asked him if he'd support a bill sponsored by Alexander abolishing the minimum wage.

"I believe the minimum wage hurts its intended beneficiaries," Sherk responded. "I do not support the concept of the minimum wage."

"I appreciate your honesty," Sanders replied.
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Old 06-27-2013, 11:49 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
It's rather insulting watching Liberals whine about the minimum wage, but then turn around and demand 12 million illegal aliens (aka "Wage depressors") be legalized. Truly amazing level of hubris.
What's really scary is realizing that liberal policies which actually inflict great harm on the poor and minorities will continue to get more and more liberal politicians elected.

The only way to combat such tactics would be to rationally explain to the people voting for such things why those policies are based on logical fallacies, but alas, the number of functional idiots who can't understand those explanations will only increase as the public schools (designed by liberals) continue to churn out marching morons.

There appears to be no way out of the conundrum.
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Old 06-27-2013, 12:30 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by gblowfish View Post
Because those Wal Mart workers are overpaid, damn it! This guy is the ranking GOP member of the Senate Labor Committee. Wow....
Wal Mart employees are overpaid.

In my eyes just because you have a JOB doesn't mean you're entitled to a certain amount. You have to be worth it. Unskilled workers at Wal-mart start low, but there are a lot of opportunities that I"ve seen people take advantage of. IT's not my fault or anyone else's that so many people are content making minimum wage (and they're usually making more) to do as little work as possible.

I always attempted to out-work my pay so that I could shove it in my boss's face and demand more money. Always worked for me too. Increase in skills equals an increase in earning power.
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Old 06-27-2013, 12:39 PM   #33
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You definitely need some kind of minimum wage to prevent corporate abuse. But it should be low. Minimum wage is a job killer and frankly, I'd much rather a company invest those dollars into training and developing minimum wage workers to get out of that job than enable someone to get raises based on government mandate.
Minimum wage is not a job killer. Raises in the minimum usually lead to increased economic activity which leads to more jobs. The research is pretty clear on that.
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Old 06-27-2013, 12:42 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
It's rather insulting watching Liberals whine about the minimum wage, but then turn around and demand 12 million illegal aliens (aka "Wage depressors") be legalized. Truly amazing level of hubris.
If they are legal, then they are entitled to minimum wages which would make wages increase for them and others. You really are a dumb mother****er.
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Old 06-27-2013, 12:47 PM   #35
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The average salary of a Walmart store manager in the United States is $83,000 as of October 2010, according to Simply Hired. Varies by location which makes sense.

Simply Hired provided average salaries for the following types of managerial positions at Walmart in the United States as of October 2010: assistant manager, $38,000; customer service manager, $43,000; manager at Walmart's home office, $56,000.

Read more: http://www.ehow.com/facts_7330173_av...#ixzz2XRL2fUMc
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Old 06-27-2013, 12:54 PM   #36
'Hamas' Jenkins 'Hamas' Jenkins is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Gilded Age Facts to deal with Progressive lies about being dominated by Robber Barons etc.
During the Gilded Age, as Milton Friedman famously said, there was “no FCC, no SEC, and you pick out any other three letters of the alphabet and it wasn’t there either.” Annual spending by the federal government was only about 3% of GDP, and Americans used their freedom to invent many products like barbed wire and to discover 300 products to be made from the lowly peanut. We had medical breakthroughs with the germ theory of disease, and entrepreneurs funded the science that led to cures for hookworm. Entrepreneurs also started libraries all over the nation and funded missionaries to preach Christianity in China, Africa, and other places around the world. The U.S. became a great industrial power during the Gilded Age; millions of immigrants flocked to New York City. American oil and steel dominated the world. A free people showed the world how freedom could improve lives across the globe.

Already knew the above but just found this to paste for a good summary which saves me time.
http://www.burtfolsom.com/?p=1748
The progressive left is dominated by envy, jealousy, covetousness and hatred of success. Yes, even honest success. Really, they have their own kind of greed, which eats out the productive sector.
Yes, there were none of the organizations that provided safety in the workplace or enforced things like child labor laws so that your eight year old, who was often forced to work out of poverty, wasn't suffocated in a coal mine collapse or a too-narrow chimney.

You know what the average family income was in 1890? $380. That's $9900 in today's economy.

The US economy grew tremendously during the Gilded Age, but nearly the entirety of the financial benefit of that growth fell to a sliver of a sliver of the population.
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Old 06-27-2013, 12:59 PM   #37
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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As I posted with details in the past, child labor died out on it's own as the middle-class became more prosperous.
They began to put their children in school. Government regulations often follow trends already in motion. The Fair Labor Standards Act wasn't passed until 1938 which is the main act that outlawed child labor.

As usual, the Progs were lying then and they're still lying now.
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Old 06-27-2013, 01:08 PM   #38
'Hamas' Jenkins 'Hamas' Jenkins is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
As I posted with details in the past, child labor died out on it's own as the middle-class became more prosperous.
They began to put their children in school. Government regulations often follow trends already in motion. The Fair Labor Standards Act wasn't passed until 1938 which is the main act that outlawed child labor.

As usual, the Progs were lying then and they're still lying now.


The FLSA was passed in part b/c people were so poor from the depression that adults would work for dirt

Furthermore, the first child labor law was passed during the Progressive Age after grassroots activism, some 20 years before.

If it died out on its own, then two federal laws outlawing it some 20 years apart wouldn't need to exist, nor would a constitutional amendment have passed through the legislature.
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Old 06-27-2013, 01:24 PM   #39
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The FLSA was passed in part b/c people were so poor from the depression that adults would work for dirt
You can give me a nervous-nelly of a laugh because it shows you don't understand. People laugh at what they don't understand. Your point is irrelevant. My point isn't to show the reason for it but the date of it. You're relying on a strawman argument. Child Labor was dying out long before that. It waned around 1918. The details are linked in past threads. And it was parents who needed the money from that labor. Whole families worked.


As for your wage comparison, it's irrelevant since there wasn't a Federal Reserve around to inflate the money supply. Prices were falling and it was not a disaster but rather a benefit to the population.
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Old 06-27-2013, 01:29 PM   #40
'Hamas' Jenkins 'Hamas' Jenkins is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post

You can give me a nervous-nelly of a laugh because it shows you don't understand. People laugh at what they don't understand.
People laugh at stupid shit, too. Hence my guffaw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPead

My point is the reason for it. That's just a strawman. It's to show that child labor trends were already dying out. The details are linked in past threads. They were dying out long before that too. And it was parents who needed the money from that labor. Whole families worked.


As for your wage comparison, it's irrelevant since there wasn't a Federal Reserve around to inflate the money supply. Prices were falling and it was not a disaster but rather a benefit to the population.
You don't understand the CPI or poverty levels very well, do you?

That average income that I gave you was actually well below the poverty line at that time.
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Old 06-27-2013, 01:34 PM   #41
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You need a whole-sale re-education in economic history. Most do. I can't do that here. It'd take too long.
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Old 06-27-2013, 01:54 PM   #42
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Yes, there were none of the organizations that provided safety in the workplace or enforced things like child labor laws so that your eight year old, who was often forced to work out of poverty, wasn't suffocated in a coal mine collapse or a too-narrow chimney.

You know what the average family income was in 1890? $380. That's $9900 in today's economy.

The US economy grew tremendously during the Gilded Age, but nearly the entirety of the financial benefit of that growth fell to a sliver of a sliver of the population.
Except you know for that whole thing called the middle class. Pre-industrial world: massive amount of poor people mostly doing subsistence farming, small middle class of tradesman and merchants, smaller upper class nobility. Industrial Revolution: Declining amount of people in poverty, growing middle class, growing upper class as wealth wasn't tied to land anymore.

That 380 also went a lot farther because the currency was not inflated and prices actually dropped through the gilded age. Also what we would call necessary for life today were either luxuries or weren't invented yet.

Also, your thing about child labor? The way the modern Western world is now is the exception in human history. For most of human history children were expected to work on the farm or learning a trade. That is why having a big family traditionally was a good thing more labor availability. During the industrial revolution people weren't shocked by child labor because it was nothing new.
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Old 06-27-2013, 02:01 PM   #43
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People laugh at stupid shit, too. Hence my guffaw.
It's stupid to you because you don't understand it, being a self-admitted socialist. No socialist is going to have an open mind. Well, at least Hayek did. He was a former lefty.

Quote:
You don't understand the CPI or poverty levels very well, do you?
You haven't read my posts on how the CPI is a bogus statistic, have you?

You've missed all my posts on Austrian Economic analysis of things like GDP and CPI.

The CPI is based on a mythical basket of goods by today's mainstream economists. When they don't like what the numbers show, they change what's in that basket of goods. Politicians manipulate these numbers too. Besides CPI wasn't even around back then, so how do I know if you're comparing apples to oranges?

Poverty levels, seriously? What you don't understand, was how rough life was for most of the population until the Industrial Revolution happened. People lived in filth, with disease, wearing the same clothes everyday and children begged on the street. Go get those stats and then let's look at your numbers for the Gilded Age. ( an age not that well studied in general)

It took mass production to make goods cheap enough for the masses, so they didn't have to wear the same clothes everyday, have more food and a better standard of living. By the time the Gilded Age came, they had things only kings once had. One being a change of clothes. You don't take one period and say "See! Look at their incomes then." You watch the long-term trend. The rise out of poverty is generational.

If you read Losing Ground by Charles Murray he has very well documented charts and graphs showing declining poverty statistics. You'll see that people were continually rising out of those levels over time until govt interference, in particular when the poverty programs came in. After that they froze.

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That average income that I gave you was actually well below the poverty line at that time.
So. Income statistics don't tell the whole story...since they had greater buying power. <--what you ignored in my earlier post.

Again, it would take a full course to re-educate you. The Progressives were lying back then and they're lying now. They blame markets when it was govt interference that wrecked havoc with economies.
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Old 06-27-2013, 02:02 PM   #44
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Child Labor was dying out long before that. It waned around 1918. The details are linked in past threads. And it was parents who needed the money from that labor. Whole families worked.
BEP also believes slavery was just about to die out on its own when the Civil War started.

She also believes slavery was necessary to teach blacks skills and discipline, but that's another issue. Carry on...
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Old 06-27-2013, 02:13 PM   #45
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Except you know for that whole thing called the middle class. Pre-industrial world: massive amount of poor people mostly doing subsistence farming, small middle class of tradesman and merchants, smaller upper class nobility. Industrial Revolution: Declining amount of people in poverty, growing middle class, growing upper class as wealth wasn't tied to land anymore.

That 380 also went a lot farther because the currency was not inflated and prices actually dropped through the gilded age. Also what we would call necessary for life today were either luxuries or weren't invented yet.

Also, your thing about child labor? The way the modern Western world is now is the exception in human history. For most of human history children were expected to work on the farm or learning a trade. That is why having a big family traditionally was a good thing more labor availability. During the industrial revolution people weren't shocked by child labor because it was nothing new.
It looks bad by our standards, but what preceded that was far more horrific. This age basically destroyed the old social order of privilege too.


Quote:
The classical factory of the early days of the Industrial Revolution was the cotton mill. Now, the cotton goods it turned out were not something the rich were asking for. These wealthy people clung to silk, linen, and cambric. Whenever the factory with its methods of mass production by means of power-driven machines invaded a new branch of production, it started with the production of cheap goods for the broad masses. The factories turned to the production of more refined and therefore more expensive goods only at a later stage, when the unprecedented improvement in the masses' standard of living they had caused made it profitable to apply the methods of mass production also to these better articles. Thus, for instance, the factory-made shoe was for many years bought only by the "proletarians" while the wealthier consumers continued to patronize the custom shoemakers. The much-talked-about sweatshops did not produce clothes for the rich, but for people in modest circumstances. The fashionable ladies and gentlemen preferred and still do prefer custom-made frocks and suits.

The outstanding fact about the Industrial Revolution is that it opened an age of mass production for the needs of the masses. The wage earners are no longer people toiling merely for other people's well-being. They themselves are the main consumers of the products the factories turn out. Big business depends upon mass consumption. There is, in present-day America, not a single branch of big business that would not cater to the needs of the masses. The very principle of capitalist entrepreneurship is to provide for the common man. In his capacity as consumer the common man is the sovereign whose buying or abstention from buying decides the fate of entrepreneurial activities. There is in the market economy no other means of acquiring and preserving wealth than by supplying the masses in the best and cheapest way with all the goods they ask for.

Blinded by their prejudices, many historians and writers have entirely failed to recognize this fundamental fact. As they see it, wage earners toil for the benefit of other people. They never raise the question who these "other" people are.
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The early industrialists were for the most part men who had their origin in the same social strata from which their workers came. They lived very modestly, spent only a fraction of their earnings for their households and put the rest back into the business. But as the entrepreneurs grew richer, the sons of successful businessmen began to intrude into the circles of the ruling class. The highborn gentlemen envied the wealth of the parvenus and resented their sympathies with the reform movement. They hit back by investigating the material and moral conditions of the factory hands and enacting factory legislation.
Even earlier, as the merchant class rose it was the aristocracy and nobles that passed laws preventing them from wearing rich clothing. Talk about maintaining a caste system via dress.


The Popular Interpretation of the "Industrial Revolution" -->debunked
http://mises.org/daily/4604
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