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Old 06-27-2013, 09:17 AM  
gblowfish gblowfish is offline
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Uncle Lamar Wants to Abolish the Minimum Wage

Because those Wal Mart workers are overpaid, damn it! This guy is the ranking GOP member of the Senate Labor Committee. Wow....

http://tinyurl.com/omaxldm

WASHINGTON -- Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.), the ranking Republican on the Senate's labor committee, said in a hearing Tuesday that he would prefer to see the minimum wage abolished.

Alexander's declaration came amid a back-and-forth between a witness from the conservative Heritage Foundation and Sens. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) and Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.). The trio had been debating what kind of impact a higher minimum wage would have on a theoretical worker, and it seemed Sanders wanted to know whether the witness opposed raising the minimum wage or having a minimum wage at all.

"There are some conservatives who do not believe in the concept of the minimum wage," Sanders said to the witness, James Sherk, a labor policy analyst at the think tank.

"Let me jump in," Alexander then said. "I do not believe in it."

The policy debate had been lively, with interruptions all around, and Sanders grew excited at Alexander's interjection.

"So we have a ranking member," Sanders responded. "Alright! There we go!"
Sanders turned to Alexander.

"So you do not believe in the concept of the minimum wage?"

"That's correct," Alexander responded.

"You would abolish the minimum wage?"

"Correct."

"And if someone had to work for two bucks an hour," Sanders continued, "they would work for two bucks an hour?"

Alexander went on to compare a higher minimum wage to a form of welfare. Instead of boosting it, as Congress is now considering, he suggested a common conservative alternative to a federal wage floor -- a higher earned-income tax credit.

"No, I would go for a much more targeted approach," Alexander said. "The question I want to ask, if we are interested in social justice, and we want to honor work instead of getting a welfare check, then wouldn't a more efficient way to help people in poverty be to increase the earned-income tax credit rather than do what we always do here, which is come up with a big idea and send the bill to somebody else? What we're doing is coming up with the big idea and sending the bill to the employer.

"Why don't we just pay for the big ideas we come up with," he continued. "And if we want to create a standard of living for people that's much higher than what they have today, then let's attach the dollars to the job and everybody pay for it. I don't want to do that. But if we were going to do it, then I think that's the way we should do it."

"That's a very interesting discussion for another time," Sanders said with a slight laugh.

Sanders then turned back to Sherk and asked him if he'd support a bill sponsored by Alexander abolishing the minimum wage.

"I believe the minimum wage hurts its intended beneficiaries," Sherk responded. "I do not support the concept of the minimum wage."

"I appreciate your honesty," Sanders replied.
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Old 06-30-2013, 08:09 AM   #121
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
The periods of time in America when such policies were not in use, mostly in the 19th century. Like after the first Bank of the US was done away with. ( Hamilton's Curse provides excellent examples of what happened.) If you want more, and it will take a lot more to educate you, or re-educate you, go to Foundation for Economic Education (FEE) and the Mises website. They even have classes.

I see my points went over your head again.
Libertarians: Still a cult
Simply note libertarianism's fatal flaw and you'll get an enraged, hysterical response. They still don't get it

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/11/libe..._still_a_cult/

My previous Salon essay, in which I asked why there are not any libertarian countries, if libertarianism is a sound political philosophy, has infuriated members of the tiny but noisy libertarian sect, as criticisms of cults by outsiders usually do. The weak logic and bad scholarship that suffuse libertarian responses to my article tend to reinforce me in my view that, if they were not paid so well to churn out anti-government propaganda by plutocrats like the Koch brothers and various self-interested corporations, libertarians would play no greater role in public debate than do the followers of Lyndon LaRouche or L. Ron Hubbard.

An unscientific survey of the blogosphere turns up a number of libertarians claiming in response to my essay that, because libertarianism is anti-statist, to ask for an example of a real-world libertarian state shows a failure to understand libertarianism. But if the libertarian ideal is a stateless society, then libertarianism is merely a different name for utopian anarchism and deserves to be similarly ignored.

Another response to my essay has been to claim that a libertarian country really did exist once in the real world, in the form of the United States between Reconstruction and the New Deal. Robert Tracinski writes that I am “astonishingly ignorant of history” for failing to note that the “libertarian utopia, or the closest we’ve come to it, is America itself, up to about 100 years ago. It was a country with no income tax and no central bank. (It was on the gold standard, for crying out loud. You can’t get more libertarian than that.) It had few economic regulations and was still in the Lochner era, when such regulations were routinely struck down by the Supreme Court. There was no federal welfare state, no Social Security, no Medicare.”

It is Tracinski who is astonishingly ignorant of history. To begin with, the majority of the countries that adopted the “libertarian” gold standard were authoritarian monarchies or military dictatorships. With the exception of Imperial Britain, an authoritarian government outside of the home islands, where most Britons were denied the vote for most of this period, most of the independent countries of the pre-World War I gold standard epoch, including the U.S., Germany, France, Russia and many Latin American republics, rejected free trade in favor of varying degrees of economic protectionism.


For its part, the U.S. between Lincoln and FDR was hardly laissez-faire. Ever since colonial times, states had engaged in public poor relief and sometimes created public hospitals and asylums. Tracinski to the contrary, there were also two massive federal welfare programs before the New Deal: the Homestead Act, a colossal redistribution of government land to farmers, and generous pension benefits for Union veterans of the Civil War and their families. Much earlier, the 1798 act that taxed sailors to fund a small system of government-run sailors’ hospitals was supported by Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton alike.

State and local licensing rules and trade laws governed economic life in detail, down to the size of spigots in wine casks, in some cases.

It was precisely these state and local regulations that the Supreme Court struck down, in Lochner v. New York (1905) and other cases, to promote the goal of creating a single national market. At the same time, sharing their racism with most white Americans, federal judges in Tracinski’s “libertarian” America permitted the most massive system of labor market distortion of all: racial segregation, which artificially boosted the incomes and property values of whites.

The single national market that Lochner-era courts sought to protect from being Balkanized by state and local regulations (other than racial segregation) was walled off by the highest protective tariffs of any major industrial nation. The U.S. government between Lincoln and FDR engaged in a version of modern East Asian-style mercantilism, protecting American industrial corporations from import competition, while showering subsidies including land grants on railroad companies and using federal troops to crush protesting workers. This government-business mercantilism was anti-worker but it was hardly libertarian.

High tariffs to protect American companies in Tracinski’s alleged Golden Age of American libertarianism were joined by racist immigration restrictions that further boosted the incomes of white workers already boosted by de jure or de facto racial segregation. The 1790 Naturalization Act barred immigrants from becoming citizens unless they were “free white persons” and had to be amended by the 1870 Naturalization Act to bestow citizenship on former slaves of “African nativity” and “African descent.” Although the Supreme Court in 1898 ruled that the children of Asians born in the U.S. were citizens by birth, Tracinski’s libertarian utopia was characterized by increasingly restrictive immigration laws which curtailed first Asian immigration and then, after World War I, most European immigration.

Calvin Coolidge, the subject of a hero-worshiping new biography by the libertarian conservative Amity Shlaes, defended both high tariffs and restrictive immigration. Here is an excerpt from President Coolidge’s second annual address in 1924:

Two very important policies have been adopted by this country which, while extending their benefits also in other directions, have been of the utmost importance to the wage earners. One of these is the protective tariff, which enables our people to live according to a better standard and receive a better rate of compensation than any people, any time, anywhere on earth, ever enjoyed. This saves the American market for the products of the American workmen. The other is a policy of more recent origin and seeks to shield our wage earners from the disastrous competition of a great influx of foreign peoples. This has been done by the restrictive immigration law. This saves the American job for the American workmen.

In 1921 then vice-president Coolidge wrote an article entitled “Whose Country is This?” in Good Housekeeping, in which he declared:

“Biological laws tell us that certain divergent people will not mix or blend. The Nordics propagate themselves successfully. With other races, the outcome shows deterioration on both sides.” (Amity Shlaes’s hero evidently believed racist pseudoscience about dangerous and inferior “half-breeds”).

Protectionist, nativist paleoconservatives of the Patrick Buchanan school might have reason to idealize the U.S. as it existed between 1865 and 1932. But libertarians who want to prove that a country based on libertarian ideology can exist in the real world cannot point to the United States at any period in its history from the Founding to the present.
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Old 06-30-2013, 08:11 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
Even economists who are often liberal argue against a high minimum wage.
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Old 06-30-2013, 08:26 AM   #123
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Lind is a neo-fascist, not exactly someone you want preaching for your side. For gods sake, he thought Vietnam War was a good idea.
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Old 06-30-2013, 09:59 AM   #124
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A high minimum wage forces companies to invest in low-calibre workers instead of jobs. It hurts ability for businesses to invest in growth. And it makes it very, very difficult to hire young entry-level employees because there's only so many high minimum wage jobs a company can afford to offer. Meanwhile, our products have to compete with overseas products where labor is extremely cheap.

The only reason minimum wage has merit is to prevent businesses from abusing the system and offering unreasonably low wages.
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Old 06-30-2013, 10:58 AM   #125
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The only reason minimum wage has merit is to prevent businesses from abusing the system and offering unreasonably low wages.
How? Again, if Taco Bell wants to offer $2/hr wages they won't find any labor. It's nearly impossible to "exploit" workers in a capitalist system. Other companies will pay more than Taco Bell and labor will flee to to those companies.


Companies always monitor their pay structure to ensure they're competitive in the marketplace and so they don't lose their existing employees. Re-hires and training is very expensive. There is no "exploitation" in the labor market.
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:12 AM   #126
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All I have to see in Loneiquana's retort is a huge cut-and-paste starting with the title "cult'. EPIC fail.
Probably had to do a google search to find what he needed.

Whether or not something ever existed before, is another type of logical fallacy because it doesn't refute anything. I mean, if our Founders went by that our original republic would have never been established. It was the first of it's kind in history. I never made the claim, ev'r, that we had a purely libertarian economic system. In fact, in one previous thread, acknowledged the mercantilism of the Gilded Age. Nevertheless, it is true that markets had been much freer in the past ( and with pockets of free markets ) That loneiguana thinks it's strictly "libertarian" is even more odd. I used Austrian School and I am long familiar with the bogus claim that it's strictly "theoretical." It's logic based and on what's happens in a market.

Another day loneiguana. You've been dismissed from class.
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:19 AM   #127
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I asked for one Country that hasn't had a boom and bust cycle. Can you provide one or not?
It's irrelevant. I'm not interested in other countries, but our own since we have them.

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Because, again, Canada has found a way to do it.
Link?
I'll bet they don't print money the way our Fed does too. Most of them are mediocre because they have expunged the best and brightest from their egalitarian paradise. Mediocrity in Canada is essential to survival. This is true of all socialisms. But at least their liberals are more pro-business than ours.


EDIT: After checking some facts on Canada.


Well per the Mises Institute, Canada, at least during the Financial Crisis and Global Recession ( really a depression) of 2008 did fare better—BUT the conservatives took over and they did not do what we did in America. Their stimulus was much smaller even if doing nothing at all would have been better. Anyhow, this link shows they devoted themselves to deficit reduction, govt spending cuts and initiated some modest tax cuts. They've even produced a surplus unlike other countries currently. It's been one of their most fiscally responsible periods in this bastion of "liberalism."

Meanwhile, both Rs and Ds have pushed America further to the left while Europe has moved closer to socialist ideals—and are not faring well due to it.


How Canada Escaped the Global Recession
No, the whole article is not a wholesale endorsement of everything Canada did.
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:44 AM   #128
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More on Canada

BTW, this link provides a rundown of the 19th century panics, as they were called then, and cites the direct relationship to banking issues I mentioned earlier. Canada, per this, did not suffer from these things but they also did not have any central bank. They did establish a central bank about 20 years after us.

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The post–Civil War panics in the United States were due in large part to the unit-banking regulations in many states ...Canada experienced none of these panics even though it did not establish a central bank, the establishment’s trusted panacea, until 1934. As Milton Friedman was fond of pointing out, when 9,000 banks failed in the U.S. during the Great Depression, not a single bank failure was taking place in Canada, where the banking system was not damaged by these regulations.

Moreover, as Charles Calomiris has noted, the bank failure rate during the pre-Fed panics was small, [they also lasted a shorter period of time too -bep]as were the losses depositors suffered. Depositor losses amounted to only 0.1 percent of GDP during the Panic of 1893, which was the worst of them all with respect to bank failures and depositor losses. By contrast, in just the past 30 years of the central-bank era, the world has seen 20 banking crises that led to depositor losses in excess of 10 percent of GDP. Half of those saw losses in excess of 20 percent of GDP.

Just from an empirical point of view, therefore, the case for the Fed is far weaker than its proponents admit or realize.

Tom Woods-Can We Live without the Fed
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:55 AM   #129
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Canada's major banks, however, emerged from the financial crisis of 2008-09 among the strongest in the world, owing to the financial sector's tradition of conservative lending practices and strong capitalization.
http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/c...a_economy.html

BUT...

The Bank of Canada has been devaluing our currency in-step with the Federal Reserve. This helps their position.

Don't get me wrong, Canada is still fairly fascist.
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Old 06-30-2013, 04:08 PM   #130
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All I have to see in Loneiquana's retort is a huge cut-and-paste starting with the title "cult'. EPIC fail.
Probably had to do a google search to find what he needed.

Whether or not something ever existed before, is another type of logical fallacy because it doesn't refute anything. I mean, if our Founders went by that our original republic would have never been established. It was the first of it's kind in history. I never made the claim, ev'r, that we had a purely libertarian economic system. In fact, in one previous thread, acknowledged the mercantilism of the Gilded Age. Nevertheless, it is true that markets had been much freer in the past ( and with pockets of free markets ) That loneiguana thinks it's strictly "libertarian" is even more odd. I used Austrian School and I am long familiar with the bogus claim that it's strictly "theoretical." It's logic based and on what's happens in a market.

Another day loneiguana. You've been dismissed from class.
That is why you live in fantasy and not reality.

IF you have not real life examples, you are dealing with theory. And fantasy theory at that.

Provide real life examples to back up your arguments or gtfo.

I based my opinions on reality.
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Old 06-30-2013, 04:11 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
A high minimum wage forces companies to invest in low-calibre workers instead of jobs. It hurts ability for businesses to invest in growth. And it makes it very, very difficult to hire young entry-level employees because there's only so many high minimum wage jobs a company can afford to offer. Meanwhile, our products have to compete with overseas products where labor is extremely cheap.

The only reason minimum wage has merit is to prevent businesses from abusing the system and offering unreasonably low wages.
You basing your argument on the idea that the minimum wage is high. It isn't. Not by current poverty level standards or by historical standards.
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Old 06-30-2013, 04:14 PM   #132
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BEP wants to go back to this:

The Long Depression (1873-1878)

http://www.socialwelfarehistory.com/...ng-depression/

http://sonoranalliance.com/2008/10/0...ng-depression/
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Old 06-30-2013, 04:14 PM   #133
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“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged . One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”


― John Rogers
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Old 06-30-2013, 04:21 PM   #134
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“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged . One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”


― John Rogers
Funny, because objectivists are not libertarians.

Also, who the hell is John Rogers?
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Old 06-30-2013, 04:27 PM   #135
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I based my opinions on reality.

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