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Old 07-01-2013, 09:33 AM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Egyptian protestors storming Muslim Brotherhood HQ, demanding Morsi's removal.

The ugly business of budding democracies.

Happening before our very eyes. This is explosive.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...850692648.html

Egypt opposition to continue mass protests
Seat of the powerful Muslim Brotherhood to which President Morsi belongs set on fire as protesters push for his removal.
Last Modified: 01 Jul 2013 12:45

Protesters seeking to force Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi from office are gearing up for a second day of action, after large crowds thronged the streets of Cairo and cities around the country and marched on the presidential palace.

In the capital, the seat of the powerful Muslim Brotherhood to which Morsi belongs, was set ablaze before people stormed and looted the building, an AFP correspondent there said.

People were seen leaving with petrol bombs, helmets, flak jackets, furniture, televisions and documents.

Some preparing for rallies on Monday spent the night in dozens of tents pitched at Cairo's central Tahrir Square and the palace, positions organisers say they will hold until Morsi resigns.

In fewer numbers, supporters of the Egyptian president came out on Sunday to show their support and defend what they called the president’s "legitimacy".

As anger against Morsi swept the streets, at least six people were killed and more than 600 wounded in clashes between the pro and anti-Morsi groups, the Reuters news agency reported.

The main opposition Tamarod - Arabic for rebellion - movement, which led the demonstrations, gave Morsi a deadline of Tuesday to quit, threatening a campaign of civil disobedience if he stays.

The number of people who joined in protests on Sunday, the anniversary of Morsi's first year in office, was between 14m and 17m people, the interior ministry told Al Jazeera.

"It is absolutely fair to say that an unprecedented number of Egyptians went to the streets accross the country," said Al Jazeera's Hoda Abdel Hamid, reporting from Cairo.

She added that a statement from Morsi during the protests was not welcomed by many, as it did not offer anything new.

In the message released on Sunday, he said: "I believe we can come together and find a way that builds our country," and he could "engage in national dialogue."

In its statement, Tamarod urged "state institutions including the army, the police and the judiciary to clearly side with the popular will as represented by the crowds."

The group also rejected presidential calls for dialogue, saying: "There is no way to accept any halfway measures.

"There is no alternative other than the peaceful end of power of the Muslim Brotherhood and its representative, Mohamed Morsi."

Morsi supporters

A few kilometres away from the presidential palace, thousands of Morsi supporters also staged their own sit-in to show support for their president.

"If we are saying that we have a majority, and the opposition are saying that they have a majority, how can they decide?" asked Nader Omran, a spokesman for the Freedom and Justice Party, the political wing of the Muslim Brotherhood.

"What is the other solution for this dilemma, except the ballot box?"

Presidential spokesman Omar Amer said Morsi was serious in his repeated calls for national dialogue.

"[Morsi] announced to all of Egypt's people he made mistakes and that he is in the process of fixing these mistakes," Amer told a late-night news conference.

The duelling rallies on Sunday only further highlighted the deepening political polarisation in Egypt.

Morsi supporters are full of praise for his first year in office, insisting that the president has strengthened civilian rule in Egypt and done his best to manage a failing economy.

Many of them dismissed Sunday’s protests as the work of ex-regime figures and “thugs”, fuelled by a hostile media and Western governments.

Anti-government protesters, on the other hand, dismissed Morsi’s first term as a failure and described him as a dictatorial leader. Many accused him of backing the Palestinian group Hamas and other armed groups; one well-dressed man in Tahrir insisted that Morsi planned to cede the Sinai peninsula to Hamas.

But their main complaint was the worsening economy, which has been in free-fall since Morsi took office, with the Egyptian pound losing nearly 20 percent of its value and industry crippled by fuel and electricity shortages.

"He's borrowed money from everyone in the world," said Said Ahmed, referring to $11bn in loans Egypt has received from Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Turkey to prop up the economy. "Who's going to pay for that? Our children."
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:23 PM   #16
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...=djemalertNEWS

Egypt's Military Gives President 48 Hours to Resolve Crisis
Defense Minister Says the Army Would Be 'Forced to Act'
By Matt Bradley and Reem Abdellatif
Updated July 1, 2013, 3:25 p.m. ET

CAIRO—Thousands of protesters erupted into cheers after Egypt's military leaders warned that they would intervene if the president failed to resolve a political crisis within 48 hours, setting the stage for a military coup a day after millions of Egyptians thronged the country's streets demanding the president's resignation.

The statement came hours after eight people were killed in Cairo as rioters ransacked the headquarters of the Muslim Brotherhood, which is President Mohammed Morsi's power base. Protesters also regrouped Monday in the capital's central Tahrir Square and in front of the president's Ittihadiya Palace for a second day of demonstrations, which appeared to be some of the largest in Egypt's history.

The headquarters of another political party, Al Wasat, was also showed being torched, allegedly by anti-government protesters, according to live footage from Egyptian satellite channel CBC. A moderate Islamist party, Al Wasat has aligned itself with the Muslim Brotherhood and Islamist parties in the past year.

"If the people's demands are not met, the military, which is forced to act according to its role and duty, will have to disclose its own future plan," said Gen. Abdel Fattah Al Sisi, Egypt's defense minister and the head of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, in a televised address. "These steps will include discussions between all political powers, specifically the youth, who were and continue to be the spark of the revolution. No one party will be excluded or marginalized."

Gen. Al Sisi didn't say what kind of "solution" it expected Mr. Morsi to provide or say what he planned by way of an "intervention." But the general cautioned that the military wouldn't become politically involved as it did in February 2011, when it assumed power after the overthrow of President Hosni Mubarak.

Instead, Gen. Al Sisi said the armed forces would continue to "supervise the situation" and "support the people." Minutes after his speech ended, five military helicopters carrying large banners representing each branch of the armed forces flew over the protests, eliciting another round of ecstatic cheers.

The ultimatum ratcheted up pressure on Egypt's first elected president, one year after he assumed power in elections that the military itself organized.

Though Gen. Al Sisi was careful to pledge limited involvement, his statement nevertheless brings Egypt's two and half year-long transition to democracy back to square one, in which the military exercises a strong hand over the political process.

The presidency remained quiet in the hours following the statement. But members of the political opposition—many of whom had said they didn't welcome military intervention—rejected negotiations and greeted the decision as a sign that the military intended to oversee the president's departure.

"When you praise the demands of the people and then declare 48 hours, I think that the message is clear," said Khaled Dawoud, a spokesman for the National Salvation Front, an umbrella group that helped lead Sunday's protests. "I hope that the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't mess it up."

"There is no reconciliation with a president who faced opposition and demands for his resignation by over 20 million people," Mr. Dawoud said, offering his own estimate for the size of Sunday's protests.

Leaders of Tamarod, the petition campaign that also helped plan Sunday's protests, announced in a news conference that they welcomed the military's statements, and called for further protests Tuesday in front of Ittihadiya Palace, Mr. Morsi's primary residence, as well as Al Quba Palace, where Mr. Morsi is reportedly staying while protesters surround Ittihadiya.

"If Morsi wants to talk to us as an Egyptian citizen, we are open for any discussions," said Mahmoud Badr, a spokesman for Tamarod. "But if he thinks he can talk to us as an official, then we would like to confirm that he has lost any legitimacy he might have had."

Even as the military cautioned that it would oversee the transition without intervention, political analysts cautioned that the armed forces' renewed involvement could usher in more instability.

Like Mr. Morsi's year-long rule, the military's 16-month stint in power after Mr. Mubarak stepped down in February 2011 saw frequent, often violent protests and economic decline.

"With the size of the demonstrations yesterday, the opposition takes victory there. Unfortunately, I don't know that it will turn out being the victory that they want," said Michelle Dunne, an Egypt expert and a vice president of the Atlantic Council, a Washington-based think tank. "Once you allow the military to take control, it's a very unpredictable picture after that."

Ms. Dunne remarked that the haste with which the military waded into the political fray suggested that it had been planning to intervene. In January and February 2011, protesters camped in Cairo's Tahrir Square for 18 days before the military assumed power from Mr. Mubarak.

Indeed, Gen. Al Sisi warned politicians last Sunday that the military was prepared to intervene if they failed to reconcile with each other.

Videos of the attack on the Muslim Brotherhood's Cairo headquarters showed young men looting furniture and office supplies from the building, which by Monday morning appeared largely empty with windows broken.

In addition to the eight dead in Monday's seige, 45 were injured, according to Egypt's state news agency. That raised the death toll from massive protests that began Sunday to approximately a dozen.

Also Monday, 11 ministers submitted their resignations as protesters continued to demand the removal of the government. But president Morsi and Prime Minister Hisham Kandil refused to accept their resignations, Khaled Fahmy, Egypt's environment minister said today to Al Arabiya TV.

With the exception of the sacking of the Brotherhood headquarters and clashes in smaller cities throughout Egypt, Sunday's main protests in Cairo remained largely peaceful. But the violent raid on the Brotherhood offices exposed the leaderless nature of the protests against Mr. Morsi. Opposition politicians and activists appeared to have little control over rioters who attacked the building.

For its part, the Muslim Brotherhood's leadership made good on warnings that it would defend its offices if they came under attack. Videos of the nighttime attack showed unseen gunmen firing at attackers from the shadowy windows of the building. The videos couldn't be independently verified.

The attack revealed the Brotherhood's increasing isolation: Police officers had already told local media weeks before that they wouldn't protect the office of political parties from violent attacks. Indeed, some police officers were seen joining the protests against Mr. Morsi yesterday.

"A stable and secure Egypt is crucial for regional stability and security," United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said Monday through a spokesman. "The world is watching Egypt and what Egypt does with its transition will have a significant impact on other transition countries in the region."
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:38 PM   #17
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Glad to hear their military is ready to act, you know they're going to side with the secular factions.
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:41 PM   #18
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The Left is covered either way. If Morsi's regime worked out, it was proof of Obama's incredibly successful Middle East foreign policy. If it doesn't, it was proof of a "theocracy" being dangerous and one more reason the USA should rid itself of the religious Right here at home.
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Old 07-01-2013, 08:36 PM   #19
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Your response to me when I said, Egypt could be heading into a civil war:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
WTF are you talking about? That isn't remotely close to being the truth.
Rarely do I respond to comments when it comes to news from Middle East and North Africa hot spots targeted by political turmoil and terrorism. Nevertheless, for you, I will make an exception.

The media could have done a better job in informing the public of deep fissures in Arab countries into which the sectarian and religious divide. There are experts accessible to them – including using the ruler of history of when and where Sharia applies – It varies from one country to another depending on social and religious structure of each Arab country.

Clerics on Friday warned of Egypt slipping into civil war when the protests stop. On Monday, Egyptian military issued a statement on Facebook stating ‘Egyptian Armed Forces doctrines do not include military coups as a policy.’

The military spokesman said, ‘we are giving all political powers 48 hours to resolve Egypt’s current political standoff or else face a military
imposed “roadmap” for the country’s political future.’ Egyptian armed forces stand with the demands of the Egyptian people.

President Morsi’s statement on Facebook to the Egyptian military 20 minutes ago:

https://www.facebook.com/nabdelekhwa...701749598095:0

Translate it.
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Old 07-01-2013, 08:43 PM   #20
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I wasn't referring to the groveling part, but yeah, I'd agree that Obama was at least tacitly apologetic in that speech.
Well, of course you would. How could you not?
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Old 07-01-2013, 08:43 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan View Post
On Monday, Egyptian military issued a statement on Facebook stating ‘Egyptian Armed Forces doctrines do not include military coups as a policy.’
Wait.. What? Facebook? ....
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Old 07-01-2013, 08:54 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Wait.. What? Facebook? ....
What do you mean?

The link takes you to President Morsi's official Facebook page and statement..LOL

I will say one thing Fish, Amnorix certainly has a way with words....
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:06 AM   #23
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I wonder if Obama and his national security staff are trying to think of ways to covertly help Morsi stay in power.
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:14 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan View Post
Your response to me when I said, Egypt could be heading into a civil war:
Looks like you called it, though I don't remember that conversation and you didn't give me a link to that thread so I could see how that went. Anyway, your crystal ball appears to have been quite clear in this instance.

EDIT: Dylan didn't call shit, since his post was all of half a day earlier. Because Dylan removed the CONTEXT for my statement, I had no idea what post he was referring to and didn't realize he was cross-threading from something earlier that day.


Certainly a year ago there was no reason to think this would devolve into Civil


Quote:
Rarely do I respond to comments when it comes to news from Middle East and North Africa hot spots targeted by political turmoil and terrorism. Nevertheless, for you, I will make an exception.

Suffice to say that most of these Middle Eastern countries have been ruled by dictators for their entire history and are finding transitioning to democracy to be extremely difficult. All societies are fractured -- even ours -- but without a deep belief in the democratic process/system, those fractures can turn into dysfunctionality and even violence.

I for one am perfectly happy that the Muslim Brotherhood is being tossed out. Letting Mumbarak be toppled was probably a fairly tough call for the Obama Administration to make, given that he was our friend and ally for so long, but at a certain point you can end up cutting off your nose to spite your face. Certainly when Mumbarak was replaced by a Muslim Brotherhood member as President, it was about as unfortunate an outcome as possible.

Hopefully at some point Egypt will have a stable, functional and moderate government, but it seems it's going to take some growing pains to get there, to say the least.
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Last edited by Amnorix; 07-03-2013 at 09:43 AM..
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:29 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I wonder if Obama and his national security staff are trying to think of ways to covertly help Morsi stay in power.




If memory serves some Republicans on here (not sure if you were one) were critical ofthe Obama administration resuming the sale of military equipment to Egypt after Morsi was elected. Now the military appears to be a moderating influence and one that is demanding Morsi respond to the protesters.
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:34 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post



If memory serves some Republicans on here (not sure if you were one) were critical ofthe Obama administration resuming the sale of military equipment to Egypt after Morsi was elected. Now the military appears to be a moderating influence and one that is demanding Morsi respond to the protesters.
We'll see how effective the military is. I hope for the best, and the recent ultimatum bodes well, but you'll recall that Morsi replaced some of the top generals of the military to reduce their degree of independence.

You can't doubt the affection Obama's national security team has for the Muslim Brotherhood, can you?
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Old 07-02-2013, 09:29 AM   #27
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remember when defleckshun was the biggest cheerleader for the arab spring in Egypt..,,?

...remember when amnorix showed up around the launch of the Iraq war and cried and whined for years? ..it's not shocking to watch libs make excuses and marginalize this situation in Egypt...it's predictable
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:14 AM   #28
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So we get those planes back right? Or is indian giving frowned upon in the middle east like everything else?
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:40 AM   #29
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Obama blows a kiss to Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood regime and warns Egyptian military not to intervene on behalf of the Egyptian people.

Quote:
Officials have also warned the Egyptian military that a military coup would trigger U.S. legislation cutting off all U.S. aid, which totals about $1.5 billion per year.
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Old 07-02-2013, 01:21 PM   #30
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Obama blows a kiss to Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood regime and warns Egyptian military not to intervene on behalf of the Egyptian people.
The Egyptian military is not a popularly-elected body.

The civilian leadership (i.e. Morsi and the Brotherhood) is. This is a civil conflict between those seeking representation and effectiveness, and those in office either succeeding or failing to provide it.

Trust civilian determination, pat. It has served us well, even if we did have a really shitty time getting it right for the first 150 years.
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