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Old 07-01-2013, 09:33 AM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Egyptian protestors storming Muslim Brotherhood HQ, demanding Morsi's removal.

The ugly business of budding democracies.

Happening before our very eyes. This is explosive.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...850692648.html

Egypt opposition to continue mass protests
Seat of the powerful Muslim Brotherhood to which President Morsi belongs set on fire as protesters push for his removal.
Last Modified: 01 Jul 2013 12:45

Protesters seeking to force Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi from office are gearing up for a second day of action, after large crowds thronged the streets of Cairo and cities around the country and marched on the presidential palace.

In the capital, the seat of the powerful Muslim Brotherhood to which Morsi belongs, was set ablaze before people stormed and looted the building, an AFP correspondent there said.

People were seen leaving with petrol bombs, helmets, flak jackets, furniture, televisions and documents.

Some preparing for rallies on Monday spent the night in dozens of tents pitched at Cairo's central Tahrir Square and the palace, positions organisers say they will hold until Morsi resigns.

In fewer numbers, supporters of the Egyptian president came out on Sunday to show their support and defend what they called the president’s "legitimacy".

As anger against Morsi swept the streets, at least six people were killed and more than 600 wounded in clashes between the pro and anti-Morsi groups, the Reuters news agency reported.

The main opposition Tamarod - Arabic for rebellion - movement, which led the demonstrations, gave Morsi a deadline of Tuesday to quit, threatening a campaign of civil disobedience if he stays.

The number of people who joined in protests on Sunday, the anniversary of Morsi's first year in office, was between 14m and 17m people, the interior ministry told Al Jazeera.

"It is absolutely fair to say that an unprecedented number of Egyptians went to the streets accross the country," said Al Jazeera's Hoda Abdel Hamid, reporting from Cairo.

She added that a statement from Morsi during the protests was not welcomed by many, as it did not offer anything new.

In the message released on Sunday, he said: "I believe we can come together and find a way that builds our country," and he could "engage in national dialogue."

In its statement, Tamarod urged "state institutions including the army, the police and the judiciary to clearly side with the popular will as represented by the crowds."

The group also rejected presidential calls for dialogue, saying: "There is no way to accept any halfway measures.

"There is no alternative other than the peaceful end of power of the Muslim Brotherhood and its representative, Mohamed Morsi."

Morsi supporters

A few kilometres away from the presidential palace, thousands of Morsi supporters also staged their own sit-in to show support for their president.

"If we are saying that we have a majority, and the opposition are saying that they have a majority, how can they decide?" asked Nader Omran, a spokesman for the Freedom and Justice Party, the political wing of the Muslim Brotherhood.

"What is the other solution for this dilemma, except the ballot box?"

Presidential spokesman Omar Amer said Morsi was serious in his repeated calls for national dialogue.

"[Morsi] announced to all of Egypt's people he made mistakes and that he is in the process of fixing these mistakes," Amer told a late-night news conference.

The duelling rallies on Sunday only further highlighted the deepening political polarisation in Egypt.

Morsi supporters are full of praise for his first year in office, insisting that the president has strengthened civilian rule in Egypt and done his best to manage a failing economy.

Many of them dismissed Sunday’s protests as the work of ex-regime figures and “thugs”, fuelled by a hostile media and Western governments.

Anti-government protesters, on the other hand, dismissed Morsi’s first term as a failure and described him as a dictatorial leader. Many accused him of backing the Palestinian group Hamas and other armed groups; one well-dressed man in Tahrir insisted that Morsi planned to cede the Sinai peninsula to Hamas.

But their main complaint was the worsening economy, which has been in free-fall since Morsi took office, with the Egyptian pound losing nearly 20 percent of its value and industry crippled by fuel and electricity shortages.

"He's borrowed money from everyone in the world," said Said Ahmed, referring to $11bn in loans Egypt has received from Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Turkey to prop up the economy. "Who's going to pay for that? Our children."
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:51 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
That's all fine and good, but that's not the argument pat's making.

He's arguing that Obama is favoring Islamism over a protesting public.

The truth of the matter is, he's favoring self-representation over Marshall Law.
If he doesn't favor it, he sure does appease it at just about every opportunity.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:53 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by KChiefer View Post
A military coup of a leader that refused to share power, suppressed freedom of speech and lost the backing of millions of his people. That's not your typical military coup. All of this within a year.
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The country's two main religious leaders, the head of the Al-Azhar Islamic institute and the Coptic Pope, both expressed their support for the army's roadmap in speeches after Sisi, as did the main liberal opposition leader, Nobel peace laureate Mohamed ElBaradei.
Sounds like General al-Sisi is a hero to me.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:55 PM   #63
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by DementedLogic View Post
What is happening in Egypt right now demonstrates that Muslims do not want Shariah Law. Radical Islamists are just that, radical. Their views are fringe, and given the opportunity, the people of the middle east will reject their views.
Muslims want good governance.

They're trying to figure out how to get it.

This is democracy, more or less. And this is healthy, more or less.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:57 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
If he doesn't favor it, he sure does appease it at just about every opportunity.
Is there an argument with supporting evidence available?

Or is this just a drive-by fluff. It sure looks like drive-by fluff.
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Old 07-03-2013, 04:02 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Fritz88 View Post
As much as I hate the MB's way of doing politics, I am 100% against what happened today in Egypt. This was a military coup.

Saudi Arabia, UAE, and the US were all behind this.
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Sounds like General al-Sisi is a hero to me.
I feel both of these at the same time.

This was a coup. It was a coup not necessarily to appease theajprity, because who the hell knows what that is in Egypt. It was done to pacify the protesters, so business can go on as usual for the military's pocketbook.

That said, Morsi did declare himself above the Constitution, and the military does seem to have a preservation of civilian leadership in mind...

We will see, said the wise man.
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Old 07-03-2013, 04:14 PM   #66
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I was in Tahrir Square on a backpacking trip two years ago at this time; crazy to think there is half a million people in that little area now.
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:01 PM   #67
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Another foreign policy success/O'Bama and Hillary
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:04 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
We need to keep our hands off. The Egyptians are a moderate people, as far as muslims in the middle east go. Their military is a professional army. They will eventually find a leader to rally around and rule the country.
Our hands are several billion dollars a year deep into it already. Like it or not, we are impacted by both the results and the perception on the part of Egyptians that we are involved. Up until today, Morsi was our guy, unfortunately. Instead of getting out in front and siding with more moderate, secular and/or ecumenical factions, we rode Morsi until he crashed. Obama's non-leadership brings us disaster after disaster.
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:17 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Democratized nations always moderate over time. This will take time, and Egypt will emerge stronger because of it.

We did. And it took us 150 years.
Where did you come up with that? The idea of "one man, one vote, one time" didn't come out of nowhere. Communist authoritarians like Hugo Chavez love the deodorant of democracy because it gives them a veil of legitimacy. When do you think Hitler's democratized state was going to moderate if external military forces hadn't forced the issue?

And where did the 150 years come from? The New Deal didn't start kicking in for almost 160 years so if you're going all pinko here and equating moderation with socialization, you missed it by a decade or so.
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:24 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
If he doesn't favor it, he sure does appease it at just about every opportunity.
You mean like drone strikes?
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:25 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Is there an argument with supporting evidence available?

Or is this just a drive-by fluff. It sure looks like drive-by fluff.
It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to look at the list of authoritarians in the Middle East that Obama actively opposed and look at the list he treated with kid gloves and notice that he treats the Islamists better.
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:35 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to look at the list of authoritarians in the Middle East that Obama actively opposed and look at the list he treated with kid gloves and notice that he treats the Islamists better.
This has become a slogan of yours, and you never have anything to back it up.
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:36 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by stonedstooge View Post
Another foreign policy success/O'Bama and Hillary
How is what the Egyptians do a success or failure of Obama?
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:16 PM   #74
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A military coup of a leader that refused to share power, suppressed freedom of speech and lost the backing of millions of his people. That's not your typical military coup. All of this within a year.
He was elected democratically. You can't take that from him.

He ****ed up. Well, wait until its elections time.


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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Sounds like General al-Sisi is a hero to me.
Well, the general consensus in the Arab world is that he's another American puppet. He's detested there. Of course you won't hear that in Alrabiya or Aljazeera because both of the governments who own these channels helped topple Morsi.

Let it happen in a civil way. People will take him down now or later. Don't let the Military come in.

Took us back to square one. **** this shit.
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:20 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Our hands are several billion dollars a year deep into it already. Like it or not, we are impacted by both the results and the perception on the part of Egyptians that we are involved. Up until today, Morsi was our guy, unfortunately. Instead of getting out in front and siding with more moderate, secular and/or ecumenical factions, we rode Morsi until he crashed. Obama's non-leadership brings us disaster after disaster.
Morsi and the Muslim brotherhood losing the people and being ousted by the military is a good thing for America, not a disaster.
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