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Old 07-01-2013, 08:33 AM  
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Egyptian protestors storming Muslim Brotherhood HQ, demanding Morsi's removal.

The ugly business of budding democracies.

Happening before our very eyes. This is explosive.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...850692648.html

Egypt opposition to continue mass protests
Seat of the powerful Muslim Brotherhood to which President Morsi belongs set on fire as protesters push for his removal.
Last Modified: 01 Jul 2013 12:45

Protesters seeking to force Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi from office are gearing up for a second day of action, after large crowds thronged the streets of Cairo and cities around the country and marched on the presidential palace.

In the capital, the seat of the powerful Muslim Brotherhood to which Morsi belongs, was set ablaze before people stormed and looted the building, an AFP correspondent there said.

People were seen leaving with petrol bombs, helmets, flak jackets, furniture, televisions and documents.

Some preparing for rallies on Monday spent the night in dozens of tents pitched at Cairo's central Tahrir Square and the palace, positions organisers say they will hold until Morsi resigns.

In fewer numbers, supporters of the Egyptian president came out on Sunday to show their support and defend what they called the president’s "legitimacy".

As anger against Morsi swept the streets, at least six people were killed and more than 600 wounded in clashes between the pro and anti-Morsi groups, the Reuters news agency reported.

The main opposition Tamarod - Arabic for rebellion - movement, which led the demonstrations, gave Morsi a deadline of Tuesday to quit, threatening a campaign of civil disobedience if he stays.

The number of people who joined in protests on Sunday, the anniversary of Morsi's first year in office, was between 14m and 17m people, the interior ministry told Al Jazeera.

"It is absolutely fair to say that an unprecedented number of Egyptians went to the streets accross the country," said Al Jazeera's Hoda Abdel Hamid, reporting from Cairo.

She added that a statement from Morsi during the protests was not welcomed by many, as it did not offer anything new.

In the message released on Sunday, he said: "I believe we can come together and find a way that builds our country," and he could "engage in national dialogue."

In its statement, Tamarod urged "state institutions including the army, the police and the judiciary to clearly side with the popular will as represented by the crowds."

The group also rejected presidential calls for dialogue, saying: "There is no way to accept any halfway measures.

"There is no alternative other than the peaceful end of power of the Muslim Brotherhood and its representative, Mohamed Morsi."

Morsi supporters

A few kilometres away from the presidential palace, thousands of Morsi supporters also staged their own sit-in to show support for their president.

"If we are saying that we have a majority, and the opposition are saying that they have a majority, how can they decide?" asked Nader Omran, a spokesman for the Freedom and Justice Party, the political wing of the Muslim Brotherhood.

"What is the other solution for this dilemma, except the ballot box?"

Presidential spokesman Omar Amer said Morsi was serious in his repeated calls for national dialogue.

"[Morsi] announced to all of Egypt's people he made mistakes and that he is in the process of fixing these mistakes," Amer told a late-night news conference.

The duelling rallies on Sunday only further highlighted the deepening political polarisation in Egypt.

Morsi supporters are full of praise for his first year in office, insisting that the president has strengthened civilian rule in Egypt and done his best to manage a failing economy.

Many of them dismissed Sunday’s protests as the work of ex-regime figures and “thugs”, fuelled by a hostile media and Western governments.

Anti-government protesters, on the other hand, dismissed Morsi’s first term as a failure and described him as a dictatorial leader. Many accused him of backing the Palestinian group Hamas and other armed groups; one well-dressed man in Tahrir insisted that Morsi planned to cede the Sinai peninsula to Hamas.

But their main complaint was the worsening economy, which has been in free-fall since Morsi took office, with the Egyptian pound losing nearly 20 percent of its value and industry crippled by fuel and electricity shortages.

"He's borrowed money from everyone in the world," said Said Ahmed, referring to $11bn in loans Egypt has received from Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Turkey to prop up the economy. "Who's going to pay for that? Our children."
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:08 PM   #76
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I love how Obama heaters are blaming him for this.

The US foreign policy is the same.
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:09 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
Morsi and the Muslim brotherhood losing the people and being ousted by the military is a good thing for America, not a disaster.
oh no...

if obama is involved, it must be a disaster...

we've been hearing this crap for 5 years, and the republic still hasn't fallen...

maybe obama needs to **** up more often so the talking bubble will have more supposed malfeasance to carp about...
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:14 PM   #78
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You have to have been there, lived there or do some kind of deep studying to understand their culture and background.
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:34 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
Morsi and the Muslim brotherhood losing the people and being ousted by the military is a good thing for America, not a disaster.
It will only radicalize them further.

It was going so well. People were losing faith in them until this happened.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:00 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
Morsi and the Muslim brotherhood losing the people and being ousted by the military is a good thing for America, not a disaster.
I agree 10000% BUT Obama being PERCEIVED as a Morsi supporter by many many many Egyptians is not a good thing at all. He needs to learn to keep his ****ing mouth shut. He did something similar with the Kenya elections recently and his comments have now alienated a large number of moderate Kenyans who formerly were pro-Obama and pro-US and now are livid at his meddling. Luckily the few Kenyans I know blame him personally and not the US. Again, sometimes the best course of action is to stay silent... something he will never learn to do.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:37 PM   #81
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I agree 10000% BUT Obama being PERCEIVED as a Morsi supporter by many many many Egyptians is not a good thing at all. He needs to learn to keep his ****ing mouth shut. He did something similar with the Kenya elections recently and his comments have now alienated a large number of moderate Kenyans who formerly were pro-Obama and pro-US and now are livid at his meddling. Luckily the few Kenyans I know blame him personally and not the US. Again, sometimes the best course of action is to stay silent... something he will never learn to do.
He says nothing, and some people will be pissed. Say something, and other people will be pissed.

As for Kenya, I think he has a right to comment on the major events of his birthplace.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:40 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
He says nothing, and some people will be pissed. Say something, and other people will be pissed.
Saying nothing in situations like this is FAR better than ACTIVELY alienating certain groups. I'm sure the Copts and moderates of Egypt just love him stepping in to say they are wrong for supporting the military on this. But I'm sure the extremist Muslims just LOVE him now right? Why in the world would you pander to the one group that will NEVER like you. Idiocy at its finest. No need to pander to any group, just keep your ****ing mouth shut.

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As for Kenya, I think he has a right to comment on the major events of his birthplace.
Ok now this is funny!
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:01 PM   #83
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It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to look at the list of authoritarians in the Middle East that Obama actively opposed and look at the list he treated with kid gloves and notice that he treats the Islamists better.
There's really no singular approach to the Middle East by the Obama administration.

Every country, and its role in the region, has been responded to in a unique way.

For every rule you try to create as some sort of "Obama doctrine" regarding that region, I could name at least a couple exceptions.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:03 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
I agree 10000% BUT Obama being PERCEIVED as a Morsi supporter by many many many Egyptians is not a good thing at all. He needs to learn to keep his ****ing mouth shut. He did something similar with the Kenya elections recently and his comments have now alienated a large number of moderate Kenyans who formerly were pro-Obama and pro-US and now are livid at his meddling. Luckily the few Kenyans I know blame him personally and not the US. Again, sometimes the best course of action is to stay silent... something he will never learn to do.
Obama spoke out for self-determination. Not for Morsi.

Obama hasn't endorsed any of the dumb**** policies Morsi implemented.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:06 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Saying nothing in situations like this is FAR better than ACTIVELY alienating certain groups. I'm sure the Copts and moderates of Egypt just love him stepping in to say they are wrong for supporting the military on this. But I'm sure the extremist Muslims just LOVE him now right? Why in the world would you pander to the one group that will NEVER like you. Idiocy at its finest. No need to pander to any group, just keep your ****ing mouth shut.
There's no such thing as saying nothing. Not when we're elbow deep enriching their government with weapons every goddamned day.

Egyptian protesters had gas canisters fired at them a year ago that had "Made In America" all over them.

If you think it's possible for America to not project any messaging for the goings on in Egypt, you're wrong. We're permanent messengers there.

The choice of whether we send a message or not has been made.

The choice we have to actually make is what message do we want to send.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:11 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Obama spoke out for self-determination. Not for Morsi.

Obama hasn't endorsed any of the dumb**** policies Morsi implemented.
No but he spoke out AGAINST the military. The military who have now taken actions that seems to have pretty damn overwhelming support.


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There's no such thing as saying nothing. Not when we're elbow deep enriching their government with weapons every goddamned day.

Egyptian protesters had gas canisters fired at them a year ago that had "Made In America" all over them.

If you think it's possible for America to not project any messaging for the goings on in Egypt, you're wrong. We're permanent messengers there.

The choice of whether we send a message or not has been made.

The choice we have to actually make is what message do we want to send.
No you are wrong on damn near every level. Savvy diplomats can make comments without alienating huge swaths of people. Obama can not. He could have simply said that we stand with the Egyptian people and hope that they can peacefully achieve their goal of a stable thriving nation. Some bullshit like that means NOTHING but sounds good and doesn't ****ing piss people off. Well SOMEONE is always pissed but it pisses LESS people off at least.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:12 PM   #87
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What's Obama supposed to do here?
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:16 PM   #88
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What's Obama supposed to do here?
Now? Not a damn thing. Same as he should have done yesterday instead of opening his ****ing mouth and speaking out against the military.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:19 PM   #89
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Morsi took office vowing to move away from the Muslim Brotherhood. However, Morsi gave his own Brotherhood and hard-lined Islamists the power to legislate in the Upper Shura Council. In normal times, the Shura Council cannot initiate legislation.


Meanwhile, the Brotherhood and Islamists rushed through a Constitutional Declaration in which Morsi was in control, and made the Shura Council immune from judicial dissolution.

Here’s a few samples of the Articles in Egypt’s Constitution drafted by Morsi and Islamist allies:
Quote:
Article 2
Islam is the religion of the state and Arabic its official language. Principles of Islamic Sharia are the principal source of legislation.
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Article 10
The family is the basis of the society and is founded on religion, morality and patriotism.

The State is keen to preserve the genuine character of the Egyptian family, its cohesion and stability, and to protect its moral values, all as regulated by law.
Quote:
Article 11
The State shall safeguard ethics, public morality and public order, and foster a high level of education and of religious and patriotic values, scientific thinking, Arab culture, and the historical and cultural heritage of the people; all as shall be regulated by law.
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Article 31
Dignity is the right of every human being, safeguarded by the State. Insulting or showing contempt toward any human being shall be prohibited.
Well, that might put an end to sports forums.

Quote:
Article 44.
Insult or abuse of all religious messengers and prophets shall be prohibited.
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Article 64
With regards to the martyrs and the injured of wars, of the 25 January revolution, and of national duty, the State shall honor them and support their families, as well as war veterans and the injured, the families of those missing at war, and similar cases. They, their children and their wives shall have priority in employment opportunities. All of the above shall be regulated by law.
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Article 219
The principles of Islamic Sharia include general evidence, foundational rules, rules of jurisprudence, and credible sources accepted in Sunni doctrines and by the larger community.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:20 PM   #90
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No but he spoke out AGAINST the military. The military who have now taken actions that seems to have pretty damn overwhelming support.
He spoke out against deterring Egyptian self-determination.

Fortunately, the military has hewed pretty close to Egyptian self-determination since the coup.

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No you are wrong on damn near every level. Savvy diplomats can make comments without alienating huge swaths of people. Obama can not. He could have simply said that we stand with the Egyptian people and hope that they can peacefully achieve their goal of a stable thriving nation. Some bullshit like that means NOTHING but sounds good and doesn't ****ing piss people off. Well SOMEONE is always pissed but it pisses LESS people off at least.
This is just damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Obama comes out with the generic tripe you just said right there, and he's criticized for coming out with generic tripe. Justifiably so.

The President said nothing controversial, and nothing other than to let the Egyptian people find their way.

Fortunately, the Egyptian military seems similarly committed to that idea -- though the United States probably has a lot to do with that (not because of Obama's rhetoric, but because we do insane amounts of business with their military).

The goal isn't to piss off the least amount of people. It's to map out America's vision for what we want out of Egypt: a nation that can make its own determinations, rather than having them lorded down upon them by dictators, inept Presidents, and militaries.
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