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Old 07-01-2013, 09:33 AM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Egyptian protestors storming Muslim Brotherhood HQ, demanding Morsi's removal.

The ugly business of budding democracies.

Happening before our very eyes. This is explosive.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...850692648.html

Egypt opposition to continue mass protests
Seat of the powerful Muslim Brotherhood to which President Morsi belongs set on fire as protesters push for his removal.
Last Modified: 01 Jul 2013 12:45

Protesters seeking to force Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi from office are gearing up for a second day of action, after large crowds thronged the streets of Cairo and cities around the country and marched on the presidential palace.

In the capital, the seat of the powerful Muslim Brotherhood to which Morsi belongs, was set ablaze before people stormed and looted the building, an AFP correspondent there said.

People were seen leaving with petrol bombs, helmets, flak jackets, furniture, televisions and documents.

Some preparing for rallies on Monday spent the night in dozens of tents pitched at Cairo's central Tahrir Square and the palace, positions organisers say they will hold until Morsi resigns.

In fewer numbers, supporters of the Egyptian president came out on Sunday to show their support and defend what they called the president’s "legitimacy".

As anger against Morsi swept the streets, at least six people were killed and more than 600 wounded in clashes between the pro and anti-Morsi groups, the Reuters news agency reported.

The main opposition Tamarod - Arabic for rebellion - movement, which led the demonstrations, gave Morsi a deadline of Tuesday to quit, threatening a campaign of civil disobedience if he stays.

The number of people who joined in protests on Sunday, the anniversary of Morsi's first year in office, was between 14m and 17m people, the interior ministry told Al Jazeera.

"It is absolutely fair to say that an unprecedented number of Egyptians went to the streets accross the country," said Al Jazeera's Hoda Abdel Hamid, reporting from Cairo.

She added that a statement from Morsi during the protests was not welcomed by many, as it did not offer anything new.

In the message released on Sunday, he said: "I believe we can come together and find a way that builds our country," and he could "engage in national dialogue."

In its statement, Tamarod urged "state institutions including the army, the police and the judiciary to clearly side with the popular will as represented by the crowds."

The group also rejected presidential calls for dialogue, saying: "There is no way to accept any halfway measures.

"There is no alternative other than the peaceful end of power of the Muslim Brotherhood and its representative, Mohamed Morsi."

Morsi supporters

A few kilometres away from the presidential palace, thousands of Morsi supporters also staged their own sit-in to show support for their president.

"If we are saying that we have a majority, and the opposition are saying that they have a majority, how can they decide?" asked Nader Omran, a spokesman for the Freedom and Justice Party, the political wing of the Muslim Brotherhood.

"What is the other solution for this dilemma, except the ballot box?"

Presidential spokesman Omar Amer said Morsi was serious in his repeated calls for national dialogue.

"[Morsi] announced to all of Egypt's people he made mistakes and that he is in the process of fixing these mistakes," Amer told a late-night news conference.

The duelling rallies on Sunday only further highlighted the deepening political polarisation in Egypt.

Morsi supporters are full of praise for his first year in office, insisting that the president has strengthened civilian rule in Egypt and done his best to manage a failing economy.

Many of them dismissed Sunday’s protests as the work of ex-regime figures and “thugs”, fuelled by a hostile media and Western governments.

Anti-government protesters, on the other hand, dismissed Morsi’s first term as a failure and described him as a dictatorial leader. Many accused him of backing the Palestinian group Hamas and other armed groups; one well-dressed man in Tahrir insisted that Morsi planned to cede the Sinai peninsula to Hamas.

But their main complaint was the worsening economy, which has been in free-fall since Morsi took office, with the Egyptian pound losing nearly 20 percent of its value and industry crippled by fuel and electricity shortages.

"He's borrowed money from everyone in the world," said Said Ahmed, referring to $11bn in loans Egypt has received from Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Turkey to prop up the economy. "Who's going to pay for that? Our children."
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:32 PM   #91
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The Obama administration should have stepped in last November when the Shura Council’s new legislative powers were worrying opposing parties shut out of the 'democratic' process.

Thousands of Egyptians were protesting the constitution that was full of religious despotic rule. How could our government not notice?

The US government has made it clear that $1.5 billion in U.S. aid to Egypt could buy some control in problematic situations.

Although, where were President Obama, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Secretary of State John Kerry when Coptic Christians were set on fire by Muslim mobs – Sunni mobs numbering some 2000 attacking Shiites lynching and torching their homes, injuring dozens.

African and Middle Eastern media on the front pages of newspapers online displayed these atrocities.

US citizens well insulated from atrocities committed by Muslims - However, I am not sure if it is a blessing.
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:43 PM   #92
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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The Obama administration should have stepped in last November when the Shura Council’s new legislative powers were worrying opposing parties shut out of the 'democratic' process.

Thousands of Egyptians were protesting the constitution that was full of religious despotic rule. How could our government not notice?
We're interested in doing business with Egypt, and helping them.

But we can't be expected to babysit them or occupy them as they figure out how to govern themselves.

Give them time. It took us a shit ton of time to figure out what to do in this country.
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:49 PM   #93
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What do you plan on doing with Arab tribes and clans that have ruled their areas since 1403?

Shiites and Sunnis have been at war for two centuries.

It takes understanding the Quran to understand their religion, their lifestyle, and their problems.
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Old 07-04-2013, 09:28 AM   #94
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The Obama administration should have stepped in last November when the Shura Council’s new legislative powers were worrying opposing parties shut out of the 'democratic' process.
So now America needs to get involved and change the course of an independent country that passes legislation that the USA doesn't like? Thats some really arrogant thinking. We know better than you, you are to stupid to govern yourself.

Even if we wanted to do that, the job would never be done and the whole world would turn on us.
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Old 07-04-2013, 09:34 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
So now America needs to get involved and change the course of an independent country that passes legislation that the USA doesn't like? Thats some really arrogant thinking. We know better than you, you are to stupid to govern yourself.

Even if we wanted to do that, the job would never be done and the whole world would turn on us.
Basically.
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:36 AM   #96
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The President said nothing controversial, and nothing other than to let the Egyptian people find their way.
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The goal isn't to piss off the least amount of people. It's to map out America's vision for what we want out of Egypt: a nation that can make its own determinations, rather than having them lorded down upon them by dictators, inept Presidents, and militaries.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-...ck-obama-egypt

Statement by President Barack Obama on Egypt
The White House
Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate Release July 03, 2013

As I have said since the Egyptian Revolution, the United States supports a set of core principles, including opposition to violence, protection of universal human rights, and reform that meets the legitimate aspirations of the people. The United States does not support particular individuals or political parties, but we are committed to the democratic process and respect for the rule of law. Since the current unrest in Egypt began, we have called on all parties to work together to address the legitimate grievances of the Egyptian people, in accordance with the democratic process, and without recourse to violence or the use of force.

The United States is monitoring the very fluid situation in Egypt, and we believe that ultimately the future of Egypt can only be determined by the Egyptian people. Nevertheless, we are deeply concerned by the decision of the Egyptian Armed Forces to remove President Morsy and suspend the Egyptian constitution. I now call on the Egyptian military to move quickly and responsibly to return full authority back to a democratically elected civilian government as soon as possible through an inclusive and transparent process, and to avoid any arbitrary arrests of President Morsy and his supporters. Given today’s developments, I have also directed the relevant departments and agencies to review the implications under U.S. law for our assistance to the Government of Egypt.

The United States continues to believe firmly that the best foundation for lasting stability in Egypt is a democratic political order with participation from all sides and all political parties —secular and religious, civilian and military. During this uncertain period, we expect the military to ensure that the rights of all Egyptian men and women are protected, including the right to peaceful assembly, due process, and free and fair trials in civilian courts. Moreover, the goal of any political process should be a government that respects the rights of all people, majority and minority; that institutionalizes the checks and balances upon which democracy depends; and that places the interests of the people above party or faction. The voices of all those who have protested peacefully must be heard – including those who welcomed today’s developments, and those who have supported President Morsy. In the interim, I urge all sides to avoid violence and come together to ensure the lasting restoration of Egypt’s democracy.

No transition to democracy comes without difficulty, but in the end it must stay true to the will of the people. An honest, capable and representative government is what ordinary Egyptians seek and what they deserve. The longstanding partnership between the United States and Egypt is based on shared interests and values, and we will continue to work with the Egyptian people to ensure that Egypt’s transition to democracy succeeds.
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Old 07-04-2013, 11:12 AM   #97
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Can we call a few Egyptians in as advisors when it comes time to oust our Muslim brother from the presidential palace?
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Old 07-04-2013, 12:21 PM   #98
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Promising:

Quote:
Despite his subordinate position, however, Mansour will likely exercise considerable control over the drafting of a new election law, experts say. “His main job will be to get an electoral law done,” Michael Wahid Hanna, a fellow at the Century Foundation, tells FP. Over the past year, the Supreme Constitutional Court has twice invalidated electoral laws drafted by the Shura Council, Egypt’s upper house of parliament. The result, according to Hanna, has been a delay in holding parliamentary elections and a deepening of the political crisis in Egypt.
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Old 07-04-2013, 12:34 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-...ck-obama-egypt

Statement by President Barack Obama on Egypt
The White House
Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate Release July 03, 2013

As I have said since the Egyptian Revolution, the United States supports a set of core principles, including opposition to violence, protection of universal human rights, and reform that meets the legitimate aspirations of the people. The United States does not support particular individuals or political parties, but we are committed to the democratic process and respect for the rule of law. Since the current unrest in Egypt began, we have called on all parties to work together to address the legitimate grievances of the Egyptian people, in accordance with the democratic process, and without recourse to violence or the use of force.

The United States is monitoring the very fluid situation in Egypt, and we believe that ultimately the future of Egypt can only be determined by the Egyptian people. Nevertheless, we are deeply concerned by the decision of the Egyptian Armed Forces to remove President Morsy and suspend the Egyptian constitution. I now call on the Egyptian military to move quickly and responsibly to return full authority back to a democratically elected civilian government as soon as possible through an inclusive and transparent process, and to avoid any arbitrary arrests of President Morsy and his supporters. Given today’s developments, I have also directed the relevant departments and agencies to review the implications under U.S. law for our assistance to the Government of Egypt.

The United States continues to believe firmly that the best foundation for lasting stability in Egypt is a democratic political order with participation from all sides and all political parties —secular and religious, civilian and military. During this uncertain period, we expect the military to ensure that the rights of all Egyptian men and women are protected, including the right to peaceful assembly, due process, and free and fair trials in civilian courts. Moreover, the goal of any political process should be a government that respects the rights of all people, majority and minority; that institutionalizes the checks and balances upon which democracy depends; and that places the interests of the people above party or faction. The voices of all those who have protested peacefully must be heard – including those who welcomed today’s developments, and those who have supported President Morsy. In the interim, I urge all sides to avoid violence and come together to ensure the lasting restoration of Egypt’s democracy.

No transition to democracy comes without difficulty, but in the end it must stay true to the will of the people. An honest, capable and representative government is what ordinary Egyptians seek and what they deserve. The longstanding partnership between the United States and Egypt is based on shared interests and values, and we will continue to work with the Egyptian people to ensure that Egypt’s transition to democracy succeeds.
THAT was his statement after the fact. Don't be an idiot and pretend that the people he already alienated and pissed off paid ANY attention to anything he said afterwards. The above statement was for YOUR benefit because the people that matter have already tuned him out. If he'd kept his ****ing mouth shut until yesterday and this was his first and only statement then I'd have no complaint about his handling of this. He's been around Biden too long, he never could keep his mouth shut and now he tends to say more and more stupid shit that pisses people off like his buddy Joe.
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Old 07-04-2013, 12:39 PM   #100
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THAT was his statement after the fact.
Fair enough.

His statement beforehand, however, was hardly any different in messaging.
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Old 07-04-2013, 07:54 PM   #101
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Less promising:

The military has been arresting members of the Muslim Brotherhood.

One hopes they are not going to get persecuted for simply running the government shitty -- that's flirting with inviting a civil war.
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Old 07-04-2013, 07:55 PM   #102
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I hope for the best on this, but I'm experiencing Libya-intervention levels of cognitive dissonance on this.

I still don't know if I support our venture from a couple years ago in Libya. I can honestly make an effective argument either way.

This obviously doesn't involve us as critically, thank god, but I still feel pretty conflicted over it.
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Old 07-04-2013, 09:32 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Less promising:

The military has been arresting members of the Muslim Brotherhood.

One hopes they are not going to get persecuted for simply running the government shitty -- that's flirting with inviting a civil war.
You're shitting me.

The Muslim Brotherhood is nothing but a bunch of ****ing terrorists.

There's a reason it's banned in Russia.

Arrest them ALL.
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:27 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Less promising:

The military has been arresting members of the Muslim Brotherhood.

One hopes they are not going to get persecuted for simply running the government shitty -- that's flirting with inviting a civil war.
Dude, the military is going to move on them hard if they protest or commit terror. This ain't Libya. They have a clear majority of the people on their side. If the Muslim brotherhood are smart, they will just lay low and plan how to get back in the good graces of the people.

The military are professionals but they can be merciless to people they view as traitors.
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Old 07-04-2013, 11:14 PM   #105
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You're shitting me.

The Muslim Brotherhood is nothing but a bunch of ****ing terrorists.

There's a reason it's banned in Russia.

Arrest them ALL.
Russia's the country that just imprisoned Pussy Riot. Not exactly a bastion of civil liberties.

The Muslim Brotherhood did nothing illegal, so far as I'm aware. The only person that had was Morsi who declared himself above the Constitution, which as far as I know, was actually somehow allowed.
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